WHOA - Mike Babcock OUT | Sheldon Keefe IN

[WAYNEINIONA]

Honest question, with this movement of holding NHL coaches and management to decency standards you'd expect in any workplace, is it possible nobody ever hires Babcock again?

It's really starting to look like that.

 

[Joe S.]

Honest question, with this movement of holding NHL coaches and management to decency standards you'd expect in any workplace, is it possible nobody ever hires Babcock again?

It's really starting to look like that.

Mike Babcock always bets on mike Babcock. He?ll hire himself.

 

[lc9]

Honest question, with this movement of holding NHL coaches and management to decency standards you'd expect in any workplace, is it possible nobody ever hires Babcock again?

It's really starting to look like that.

No one ever should.  Not only is he a terrible human, he is now a terrible coach.  He would rather show everyone he has more power than win hockey games.  He proved that the last 2 years.  He has no business coaching again.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Honest question, with this movement of holding NHL coaches and management to decency standards you'd expect in any workplace, is it possible nobody ever hires Babcock again?

It's really starting to look like that.

Mike Babcock always bets on mike Babcock. He?ll hire himself.

Good one!

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I really thought Seattle would make a lot of sense for Babcock but after the Peters stuff the optics of Francis hiring Babcock would be pretty iffy.

 

[Kin]

When you add in the realities of his contract it may be years before he's looking for a job regardless.

 

[Pick]

Honest question, with this movement of holding NHL coaches and management to decency standards you'd expect in any workplace, is it possible nobody ever hires Babcock again?

People are very sensitive these days to the treatment of others,  owners included. His reputation is tarnished so he may not get hired again for fear of a backlash from the ticket buyers.

Regarding the ?...decency standards you?d expect in any workplace...?: do you think the ?standard? is apt to be different in a highly competitive industry that pays its employees more money in a month than most Canadians make in a year?

In my personal experience, the higher I rose in the ranks of my professional career, the more I was expected to bear. I remember, once, years ago, during a tough time in my career, I sarcastically plead to HR that ?I just want to be treated like an hourly worker?.

 

[Kin]

Regarding the ?...decency standards you?d expect in any workplace...?: do you think the ?standard? is apt to be different in a highly competitive industry that pays its employees more money in a month than most Canadians make in a year?

In a world where employees are so valuable that employers are bidding millions of dollars against each other for the right to sign them I'd actually expect standards to be higher.

 

[Peter D.]

Dare I say it, but I think the Leafs would have had a similar record the past 7 games had Babcock still been coach.

 

[L K]

Dare I say it, but I think the Leafs would have had a similar record the past 7 games had Babcock still been coach.

They might.  It's also silly to evaluate the coach after 7 games regardless of whether it is wins or losses.  St. Louis continued to play .500 hockey through January after their coaching change.  Systems changes don't get addressed over 3 games. 

They are 4-3-0 since the coaching change.  The Colorado loss was not a game where they looked awful.  They couldn't score.  The second goal was a bad mistake by Spezza but the team didn't really fold and they played a top team that was rested.  The Buffalo loss wasn't a great one because they didn't play well but they also got typical awful goaltending out of Hutchinson.  The Philly loss was bad and the way they quit late was bad but again, it was a close game right up until the last 10 minutes.  The effort overall has been better.

I like some of the changes.  The PK is more active and has been good over the last 7 games.  The PP has been scoring at a better clip but the Leafs get so few opportunities on it that its really hard to judge.

16 PK opportunities  (2/16)
10 PP opportunities  (3/10)

It might not matter based on the end of year standings but I'm not going to judge any effects of the coaching change at least until the all-star break.

 

[Peter D.]

They might.  It's also silly to evaluate the coach after 7 games regardless of whether it is wins or losses.  St. Louis continued to play .500 hockey through January after their coaching change.  Systems changes don't get addressed over 3 games. 

They are 4-3-0 since the coaching change.  The Colorado loss was not a game where they looked awful.  They couldn't score.  The second goal was a bad mistake by Spezza but the team didn't really fold and they played a top team that was rested.  The Buffalo loss wasn't a great one because they didn't play well but they also got typical awful goaltending out of Hutchinson.  The Philly loss was bad and the way they quit late was bad but again, it was a close game right up until the last 10 minutes.  The effort overall has been better.

I like some of the changes.  The PK is more active and has been good over the last 7 games.  The PP has been scoring at a better clip but the Leafs get so few opportunities on it that its really hard to judge.

16 PK opportunities  (2/16)
10 PP opportunities  (3/10)

It might not matter based on the end of year standings but I'm not going to judge any effects of the coaching change at least until the all-star break.

I'm not suggesting anything of Keefe at this point.  He's been fine.  The team has been receptive to his system, looks more engaged, some players have looked better (ie. Nylander).  Of course it's not going to turn overnight.

I was moreso pointing out that perhaps all the slagging of Babcock being a horrible coach were premature. 

 

[Guilt Trip]

They might.  It's also silly to evaluate the coach after 7 games regardless of whether it is wins or losses.  St. Louis continued to play .500 hockey through January after their coaching change.  Systems changes don't get addressed over 3 games. 

They are 4-3-0 since the coaching change.  The Colorado loss was not a game where they looked awful.  They couldn't score.  The second goal was a bad mistake by Spezza but the team didn't really fold and they played a top team that was rested.  The Buffalo loss wasn't a great one because they didn't play well but they also got typical awful goaltending out of Hutchinson.  The Philly loss was bad and the way they quit late was bad but again, it was a close game right up until the last 10 minutes.  The effort overall has been better.

I like some of the changes.  The PK is more active and has been good over the last 7 games.  The PP has been scoring at a better clip but the Leafs get so few opportunities on it that its really hard to judge.

16 PK opportunities  (2/16)
10 PP opportunities  (3/10)

It might not matter based on the end of year standings but I'm not going to judge any effects of the coaching change at least until the all-star break.

I'm not suggesting anything of Keefe at this point.  He's been fine.  The team has been receptive to his system, looks more engaged, some players have looked better (ie. Nylander).  Of course it's not going to turn overnight.

I was moreso pointing out that perhaps all the slagging of Babcock being a horrible coach were premature. 

The slagging isn't. The team overall has looked better in both ends of the rink. They get into problems when they revert back to their old ways. It's going to take time until they lose the bad habits. They are headed in the right direction with Keefe.

 

[Zee]

They might.  It's also silly to evaluate the coach after 7 games regardless of whether it is wins or losses.  St. Louis continued to play .500 hockey through January after their coaching change.  Systems changes don't get addressed over 3 games. 

They are 4-3-0 since the coaching change.  The Colorado loss was not a game where they looked awful.  They couldn't score.  The second goal was a bad mistake by Spezza but the team didn't really fold and they played a top team that was rested.  The Buffalo loss wasn't a great one because they didn't play well but they also got typical awful goaltending out of Hutchinson.  The Philly loss was bad and the way they quit late was bad but again, it was a close game right up until the last 10 minutes.  The effort overall has been better.

I like some of the changes.  The PK is more active and has been good over the last 7 games.  The PP has been scoring at a better clip but the Leafs get so few opportunities on it that its really hard to judge.

16 PK opportunities  (2/16)
10 PP opportunities  (3/10)

It might not matter based on the end of year standings but I'm not going to judge any effects of the coaching change at least until the all-star break.

I'm not suggesting anything of Keefe at this point.  He's been fine.  The team has been receptive to his system, looks more engaged, some players have looked better (ie. Nylander).  Of course it's not going to turn overnight.

I was moreso pointing out that perhaps all the slagging of Babcock being a horrible coach were premature. 

The slagging isn't. The team overall has looked better in both ends of the rink. They get into problems when they revert back to their old ways. It's going to take time until they lose the bad habits. They are headed in the right direction with Keefe.

I certainly hope so.  Blues were stumbling along with a .500 record in Berube's first 15-20 games before they got hot. Ok they got a brand new goalie which changed things for them, maybe the Leafs tonic is someone like Sandin coming up and breaking through.  It's something to cling to I guess

 

[Guilt Trip]

They might.  It's also silly to evaluate the coach after 7 games regardless of whether it is wins or losses.  St. Louis continued to play .500 hockey through January after their coaching change.  Systems changes don't get addressed over 3 games. 

They are 4-3-0 since the coaching change.  The Colorado loss was not a game where they looked awful.  They couldn't score.  The second goal was a bad mistake by Spezza but the team didn't really fold and they played a top team that was rested.  The Buffalo loss wasn't a great one because they didn't play well but they also got typical awful goaltending out of Hutchinson.  The Philly loss was bad and the way they quit late was bad but again, it was a close game right up until the last 10 minutes.  The effort overall has been better.

I like some of the changes.  The PK is more active and has been good over the last 7 games.  The PP has been scoring at a better clip but the Leafs get so few opportunities on it that its really hard to judge.

16 PK opportunities  (2/16)
10 PP opportunities  (3/10)

It might not matter based on the end of year standings but I'm not going to judge any effects of the coaching change at least until the all-star break.

I'm not suggesting anything of Keefe at this point.  He's been fine.  The team has been receptive to his system, looks more engaged, some players have looked better (ie. Nylander).  Of course it's not going to turn overnight.

I was moreso pointing out that perhaps all the slagging of Babcock being a horrible coach were premature. 

The slagging isn't. The team overall has looked better in both ends of the rink. They get into problems when they revert back to their old ways. It's going to take time until they lose the bad habits. They are headed in the right direction with Keefe.

I certainly hope so.  Blues were stumbling along with a .500 record in Berube's first 15-20 games before they got hot. Ok they got a brand new goalie which changed things for them, maybe the Leafs tonic is someone like Sandin coming up and breaking through.  It's something to cling to I guess

Leafs will have to clear out Hyman or a similar contract, cough cough, CC to bring Sandin up. St Louis catching on fire was more then just a hot goalie. Team bought into Berube and that was that but it took time. Keefe is the right guy. Not afraid to mix it up in game.

 

[Kin]

I was moreso pointing out that perhaps all the slagging of Babcock being a horrible coach were premature.

I was someone who agreed with the idea that Babcock was taking too much individual blame for the team's season and obviously what's come out since hasn't helped but I do think it's important to draw a line between saying someone should be fired for being a horrible coach and saying someone should be fired because they're being a stubborn dink.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

They might.  It's also silly to evaluate the coach after 7 games regardless of whether it is wins or losses.  St. Louis continued to play .500 hockey through January after their coaching change.  Systems changes don't get addressed over 3 games. 

They are 4-3-0 since the coaching change.  The Colorado loss was not a game where they looked awful.  They couldn't score.  The second goal was a bad mistake by Spezza but the team didn't really fold and they played a top team that was rested.  The Buffalo loss wasn't a great one because they didn't play well but they also got typical awful goaltending out of Hutchinson.  The Philly loss was bad and the way they quit late was bad but again, it was a close game right up until the last 10 minutes.  The effort overall has been better.

I like some of the changes.  The PK is more active and has been good over the last 7 games.  The PP has been scoring at a better clip but the Leafs get so few opportunities on it that its really hard to judge.

16 PK opportunities  (2/16)
10 PP opportunities  (3/10)

It might not matter based on the end of year standings but I'm not going to judge any effects of the coaching change at least until the all-star break.

I'm not suggesting anything of Keefe at this point.  He's been fine.  The team has been receptive to his system, looks more engaged, some players have looked better (ie. Nylander).  Of course it's not going to turn overnight.

I was moreso pointing out that perhaps all the slagging of Babcock being a horrible coach were premature. 

The slagging isn't. The team overall has looked better in both ends of the rink. They get into problems when they revert back to their old ways. It's going to take time until they lose the bad habits. They are headed in the right direction with Keefe.

I don't think they've looked better in either end of the rink. Just me though.
What is the standard time on giving players the benefit of the doubt that they'll lose those bad habits? In a month will we still be giving them time to get better? 2 months? Next September?

 

[Phileas Fogg]

In a month will we still be giving them time to get better? 2 months? Next September?

The expectation at the beginning of the season is that the leafs were going to be an elite team. It's pretty safe to say after 30 games that it's time to reset expectations for this group. The blues aren't evidence that the leafs can follow the same path, it's an outlier that should be quickly dismissed.

To that point, I don't think the difference between an elite team and a playoff wildcard bubble team is the difference between Keefe and Babcock's influence. There is a fundamental problem with the way the team is constructed. It looks to me like the current Leafs are what happens when baseball statisticians get free reign into how an NHL team should be built.

I can't help but wonder what this team would look like, what the contracts would have been for the big 3, and ultimately, how the team would be performing if Shanahan had gone with Lamorello instead of Dubas.

 

[Kin]

One of the biggest reasons the Leafs situation looks as dicey as it does is that the drafts under Lamoriello yielded virtually nothing outside of the first round.

Also, he was behind the decision to fast track the rebuild and drive towards the playoffs at the expense of asset accumulation.

 

[Bullfrog]

Agreed Nik. I pointed out in another thread how bare the prospect cupboard i, and the quick responses were:
1. a list of the prospects on the Marlies/ECHL/junior, which I though proved my point (rather than the intended affect of impressing me), and
2. the prospects are all up on the big club.

Obviously the Leafs are fortunate that they've got Matthews, Nylander, and Marner all under 24 years of age, but not much past that.

In the responses I got, I think people are being naively optimistic. There are a few guys who might end up being NHLers, but there are few bona fide prospects (Sandin, Liljegren, maybe Robertson?)

There are no real goalie prospects.

 

[Frank E]

One of the biggest reasons the Leafs situation looks as dicey as it does is that the drafts under Lamoriello yielded virtually nothing outside of the first round.

Also, he was behind the decision to fast track the rebuild and drive towards the playoffs at the expense of asset accumulation.

I think the Dubas decision to go after Tavares suggests that Dubas was far more into the drive for the playoffs at the expense of asset accumulation.

Lou never took a drastic step like that one, nor did he trade away 2 first round picks in the span of 6 months.  I think if you say Lou accelerated the rebuild, then you'd have to say Dubas supercharged it.

Given this, I'd think the mandate for this drive for playoffs/fast forward comes from above the GM position.