2019-2020 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

[bustaheims]

Right. Basically all the information that we have shows that the team Kyle Dubas built, with the coach he wanted, playing the style of game he's always envisioned for us has absolutely been one of the best teams in the league this season.

Yup. Their early struggles left them without a lot of room for error the rest of the way, and a slump before the break made it even tighter.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Gee imagine if the Leafs never acquired Ceci. Why they could have been the 2nd best team since November 20th instead of just the 3rd. That'd definitely push them into the contenders group.

 

[herman]

Is the only actual defender on the team the one that was acquired by Dubas?

 

[Deebo]

I don't buy for a second that it was "impossible" for him to do better than he did. They could have walked away from Ceci, for starters.

How could they have walked away?

Ceci had a qualifying offer tendered to him by Ottawa. If they didn't sign him, he just would have accepted it.The extra 300k is questionable for sure, but they couldn't have walked away.

You can say that you don't buy it, but do you have a suggestion as to how they could have gotten out from Zaitsev's long term deal without taking something like Ceci in return?

 

[Guilt Trip]

You can say that you don't buy it, but do you have a suggestion as to how they could have gotten out from Zaitsev's long term deal without taking something like Ceci in return?

That was Dubas fixing Lou's mistake. He also had to fix Lou's mistake with Marleau. The whiners  need to give it a rest. Those were 2 major black holes for this team last summer. We were all shocked when he got rid of both. We knew CC was the Zaitsev equivalent but we only have him for 1 year. Kadri had to go also and we still needed a right shot D man. He got one of the better scoring D men in the league and Kerfoot to boot. Barrie has been just fine since Keefe took over. He's not a shutdown guy but he isn't as bad as some of you say. 23pts in 30 games and a +6 under Keefe. He had 8pts in 23games and a -10 under Babs. Over 82 games Barrie would be on pace for a career high in points.
Anyway back on track, this is his 2nd year in control. The top 4 guys are done, D/back up is next. Stuff takes time and if you don't believe that, just look around the league.

Funny thing, if the Leafs were in the west, they'd be 3rd in the Central and 2nd in the Pacific. The East is the beast this year. They're still on pace for around 97 points. Lots of hockey left.

 

[bustaheims]

How could they have walked away?

Ceci had a qualifying offer tendered to him by Ottawa. If they didn't sign him, he just would have accepted it.The extra 300k is questionable for sure, but they couldn't have walked away.

You can say that you don't buy it, but do you have a suggestion as to how they could have gotten out from Zaitsev's long term deal without taking something like Ceci in return?

Ceci would have had to have taken the team to arbitration for them to have had that option. If he felt that was a possibility, there's no way he does that. That being said, Ceci's QO would have expired on July 15th, so, there wasn't need to sign him for $300K more as early as they did. They might have been able to save a little money on him, but, there was no walking away.

 

[KadriFan]

You can say that you don't buy it, but do you have a suggestion as to how they could have gotten out from Zaitsev's long term deal without taking something like Ceci in return?

That was Dubas fixing Lou's mistake. He also had to fix Lou's mistake with Marleau. The whiners  need to give it a rest. Those were 2 major black holes for this team last summer. We were all shocked when he got rid of both. We knew CC was the Zaitsev equivalent but we only have him for 1 year. Kadri had to go also and we still needed a right shot D man. He got one of the better scoring D men in the league and Kerfoot to boot. Barrie has been just fine since Keefe took over. He's not a shutdown guy but he isn't as bad as some of you say. 23pts in 30 games and a +6 under Keefe. He had 8pts in 23games and a -10 under Babs. Over 82 games Barrie would be on pace for a career high in points.
Anyway back on track, this is his 2nd year in control. The top 4 guys are done, D/back up is next. Stuff takes time and if you don't believe that, just look around the league.

Funny thing, if the Leafs were in the west, they'd be 3rd in the Central and 2nd in the Pacific. The East is the beast this year. They're still on pace for around 97 points. Lots of hockey left.

Dubas chose to sign Tavares then he over paid his top three free agents.  This forced him to not only trade those guys but he had to throw in players and a first to do it.  Not sure how that's Lou's mistake.  Fact is this entire mess belongs to Dumas. 

 

[Guilt Trip]

You can say that you don't buy it, but do you have a suggestion as to how they could have gotten out from Zaitsev's long term deal without taking something like Ceci in return?

That was Dubas fixing Lou's mistake. He also had to fix Lou's mistake with Marleau. The whiners  need to give it a rest. Those were 2 major black holes for this team last summer. We were all shocked when he got rid of both. We knew CC was the Zaitsev equivalent but we only have him for 1 year. Kadri had to go also and we still needed a right shot D man. He got one of the better scoring D men in the league and Kerfoot to boot. Barrie has been just fine since Keefe took over. He's not a shutdown guy but he isn't as bad as some of you say. 23pts in 30 games and a +6 under Keefe. He had 8pts in 23games and a -10 under Babs. Over 82 games Barrie would be on pace for a career high in points.
Anyway back on track, this is his 2nd year in control. The top 4 guys are done, D/back up is next. Stuff takes time and if you don't believe that, just look around the league.

Funny thing, if the Leafs were in the west, they'd be 3rd in the Central and 2nd in the Pacific. The East is the beast this year. They're still on pace for around 97 points. Lots of hockey left.

Dubas chose to sign Tavares then he over paid his top three free agents.  This forced him to not Lose those guys but he had to throw in players and a first to do it.  Not sure how that's Lou's mistake.  Fact is this entire mess belongs to Dumas. 

Really? Nylander is overpaid? Same argument could be made about Marner and Matthews now. They're getting what the market is. JT maybe overpaid but that's the way it goes via the UFA market.
Lou's mistake was giving Marleau 3 years and Zaitsev 7. Over 11 mill in salary for 2 players not doing much and to have Zaitsev for another 5?
Like CTB mentioned up above. " Basically all the information that we have shows that the team Kyle Dubas built, with the coach he wanted, playing the style of game he's always envisioned for us has absolutely been one of the best teams in the league this season."
I'm not concerned because he will address the D and any other area he sees fit.
Don't be bitter because Kadri got booted out of here. That was his own doing. He cost this team a chance to advance 2 years in a row.

 

[Deebo]

That was Dubas fixing Lou's mistake. He also had to fix Lou's mistake with Marleau. The whiners  need to give it a rest. Those were 2 major black holes for this team last summer. We were all shocked when he got rid of both. We knew CC was the Zaitsev equivalent but we only have him for 1 year. Kadri had to go also and we still needed a right shot D man. He got one of the better scoring D men in the league and Kerfoot to boot. Barrie has been just fine since Keefe took over. He's not a shutdown guy but he isn't as bad as some of you say. 23pts in 30 games and a +6 under Keefe. He had 8pts in 23games and a -10 under Babs. Over 82 games Barrie would be on pace for a career high in points.
Anyway back on track, this is his 2nd year in control. The top 4 guys are done, D/back up is next. Stuff takes time and if you don't believe that, just look around the league.

Funny thing, if the Leafs were in the west, they'd be 3rd in the Central and 2nd in the Pacific. The East is the beast this year. They're still on pace for around 97 points. Lots of hockey left.

Dubas chose to sign Tavares then he over paid his top three free agents.  This forced him to not Lose those guys but he had to throw in players and a first to do it.  Not sure how that's Lou's mistake.  Fact is this entire mess belongs to Dumas. 

Marner is the only one you can realistically call an overpayment. The term is shorter than I would have liked on Matthews but the AAV wasn't going to be any lower.

Even if they did get Marner done for a 1M-1.5M less, Marleau still had to go for everything to fit. No one was going to pay 4M in real money and take on a 6.25M cap hit for any less than a 1st. If the choices were give up a first to move Marleau or having the first and not having Tavares. I know what I am choosing.

It's pretty simple how it was Lou's mistake, giving Marleau a 3rd year was ill advised from the beginning and in order to move him, the Leafs had to give up value. Giving Zaitsev 7 years was also ridiculous. He easily could have said no to both of these guys. Dubas didn't even have to give up anything to move Zaitsev.

 

[bustaheims]

Marner is the only one you can realistically call an overpayment. The term is shorter than I would have liked on Matthews but the AAV wasn't going to be any lower.

Even if they did get Marner done for a 1M-1.5M less, Marleau still had to go for everything to fit. No one was going to pay 4M in real money and take on a 6.25M cap hit for any less than a 1st. If the choices were give up a first to move Marleau or having the first and not having Tavares. I know what I am choosing.

Yup. 11 times out of 10, I take that deal - especially since the pick is top 10 protected. So, even if the Leafs really crap the bed the rest of the way, worst case scenario for this year is the 11th pick in the draft. Toronto will almost certainly get better value out of Tavares than Carolina will get out of the pick.

 

[KadriFan]

You can say that you don't buy it, but do you have a suggestion as to how they could have gotten out from Zaitsev's long term deal without taking something like Ceci in return?

That was Dubas fixing Lou's mistake. He also had to fix Lou's mistake with Marleau. The whiners  need to give it a rest. Those were 2 major black holes for this team last summer. We were all shocked when he got rid of both. We knew CC was the Zaitsev equivalent but we only have him for 1 year. Kadri had to go also and we still needed a right shot D man. He got one of the better scoring D men in the league and Kerfoot to boot. Barrie has been just fine since Keefe took over. He's not a shutdown guy but he isn't as bad as some of you say. 23pts in 30 games and a +6 under Keefe. He had 8pts in 23games and a -10 under Babs. Over 82 games Barrie would be on pace for a career high in points.
Anyway back on track, this is his 2nd year in control. The top 4 guys are done, D/back up is next. Stuff takes time and if you don't believe that, just look around the league.

Funny thing, if the Leafs were in the west, they'd be 3rd in the Central and 2nd in the Pacific. The East is the beast this year. They're still on pace for around 97 points. Lots of hockey left.

Dubas chose to sign Tavares then he over paid his top three free agents.  This forced him to not Lose those guys but he had to throw in players and a first to do it.  Not sure how that's Lou's mistake.  Fact is this entire mess belongs to Dumas. 

Really? Nylander is overpaid? Same argument could be made about Marner and Matthews now. They're getting what the market is. JT maybe overpaid but that's the way it goes via the UFA market.
Lou's mistake was giving Marleau 3 years and Zaitsev 7. Over 11 mill in salary for 2 players not doing much and to have Zaitsev for another 5?
Like CTB mentioned up above. " Basically all the information that we have shows that the team Kyle Dubas built, with the coach he wanted, playing the style of game he's always envisioned for us has absolutely been one of the best teams in the league this season."
I'm not concerned because he will address the D and any other area he sees fit.
Don't be bitter because Kadri got booted out of here. That was his own doing. He cost this team a chance to advance 2 years in a row.

Why would I be bitter.  Kadri might very well win a cup this year.  My point was that Dumas spent  roughly 40M on four players and put himself in cap hell not Lou.  You can spin it anyway you want but fact is, this entire mess is Dumas.  Now he's broke with no defence to speak of, no backup goalie and no first rounder.  But hey he does have four damn good forwards....

 

[Deebo]

Why would I be bitter.  Kadri might very well win a cup this year.  My point was that Dumas spent  roughly 40M on four players and put himself in cap hell not Lou.  You can spin it anyway you want but fact is, this entire mess is Dumas.  Now he's broke with no defence to speak of, no backup goalie and no first rounder.  But hey he does have four damn good forwards....

I don't think you know what "fact" means.

 

[Frank E]

How could they have walked away?

Ceci had a qualifying offer tendered to him by Ottawa. If they didn't sign him, he just would have accepted it.The extra 300k is questionable for sure, but they couldn't have walked away.

You can say that you don't buy it, but do you have a suggestion as to how they could have gotten out from Zaitsev's long term deal without taking something like Ceci in return?

Ceci would have had to have taken the team to arbitration for them to have had that option. If he felt that was a possibility, there's no way he does that. That being said, Ceci's QO would have expired on July 15th, so, there wasn't need to sign him for $300K more as early as they did. They might have been able to save a little money on him, but, there was no walking away.

Yeah, I'm not sure we'll ever understand the extra $300K. 

 

[bustaheims]

Yeah, I'm not sure we'll ever understand the extra $300K.

Maybe not, but it?s also nothing I?m really concerned about. The Leafs would have been in a similar cap position, regardless. $300K wouldn?t move the needle much once they got into LTIR space.

 

[bustaheims]

Why would I be bitter.  Kadri might very well win a cup this year.  My point was that Dumas spent  roughly 40M on four players and put himself in cap hell not Lou.  You can spin it anyway you want but fact is, this entire mess is Dumas.  Now he's broke with no defence to speak of, no backup goalie and no first rounder.  But hey he does have four damn good forwards....

With or without Tavares, the team would have needed to move Marleau and Zaitsev to be able to improve in any meaningful way - and I?m not convinced there were more meaningful improvements than adding another #1C at no asset cost. Marner and Matthews were never going sign for significantly less than the market value contracts they ended up with. The mistakes were all on Lou. Dubas has to fix them regardless of whatever other moves he made.

 

[Frank E]

Yeah, I'm not sure we'll ever understand the extra $300K.

Maybe not, but it?s also nothing I?m really concerned about. The Leafs would have been in a similar cap position, regardless. $300K wouldn?t move the needle much once they got into LTIR space.

Maybe, but it's a game of inches in this cap environment.  Completely unnecessary overpayments on meh players is a big no-no with this salary cap strapped team.

I'm not crying in my beer here, this season has been a roller coaster, and I'm actually enjoying the ups and downs.  It's been interesting with the roster changing all the time.

 

[Highlander]

What we all seem to turn a blind eye to is Keefe's winning percentage's over 4 levels of the best hockey on the planet and whenever I comment on it, there is never one response.  Keefe started with a floundering team, the Pemberton Lumber Kings, turned them around and had an amazing win percentage.  So much so that Dubas hired him to turn around his floundering Soo Greyhounds, Keefe did, again compiling an amazing winning percentage. So when Dubas gets promoted to the Marlies, he brings Keefe along for the ride. Not saying the Marlies had bad talent, but he took them to the Calder Cup, the nearest thing to the Stanley Cup this side of the Rio Pecos.  Look at his win percentage with the Leaf to date, seems to be pretty much on line with his historical averages.  If Freddie had not gone down against the Panthers, does one of us think the loss would have happened? Not me.  That would have been 4 straight wins from the break. Do we need Anderson or first line goaltending yes. But don't think Keefe's win percentage is an aberration, as it is not.  Time after time he posts the same winning percentages.  I dare say the faces on the Leafs the game before Bab's was fired looked like they were at a funeral procession.  Look at their faces now, animated happy and hungry.. It's been a crazy yet entertaining season.  And I am looking forward to whatever happens cause boy we are playing amazingly entertaining hockey. Hell, he even seems to be teaching Matthews a 200ft. game, which he plays from time to time. I think we will see it more frequently now.

 

[Kin]

I too frequently worry that amidst all the doom and gloom, not enough people are stopping to ask themselves "How did the coach do in the Central Canadian Junior League"?

 

[hockeyfan1]

What we all seem to turn a blind eye to is Keefe's winning percentage's over 4 levels of the best hockey on the planet and whenever I comment on it, there is never one response.  Keefe started with a floundering team, the Pemberton Lumber Kings, turned them around and had an amazing win percentage.  So much so that Dubas hired him to turn around his floundering Soo Greyhounds, Keefe did, again compiling an amazing winning percentage. So when Dubas gets promoted to the Marlies, he brings Keefe along for the ride. Not saying the Marlies had bad talent, but he took them to the Calder Cup, the nearest thing to the Stanley Cup this side of the Rio Pecos.  Look at his win percentage with the Leaf to date, seems to be pretty much on line with his historical averages.  If Freddie had not gone down against the Panthers, does one of us think the loss would have happened? Not me.  That would have been 4 straight wins from the break. Do we need Anderson or first line goaltending yes. But don't think Keefe's win percentage is an aberration, as it is not.  Time after time he posts the same winning percentages.  I dare say the faces on the Leafs the game before Bab's was fired looked like they were at a funeral procession.  Look at their faces now, animated happy and hungry.. It's been a crazy yet entertaining season.  And I am looking forward to whatever happens cause boy we are playing amazingly entertaining hockey. Hell, he even seems to be teaching Matthews a 200ft. game, which he plays from time to time. I think we will see it more frequently now.

That?s another reason why Keefe should have been there (behind the Leafs bench) before the season began, meaning Babs should have been a gone sooner.

But at least, we can all be happy and rest assured that with Keefe at the helm, this team is and will be continuing into the right direction.  This is just the beginning of even greater things to come from & for this hockey team.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Of course FLA-CBJ went to overtime tonight.