WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
Kadri is much better than a third liner.
Armchair GM 2016-2017
- Thread starter Tigger
- Start date
bustaheims
Active member
WhatIfGodWasALeaf said:
My thoughts exactly. It's also not super unusual for a team to have their best two-way C on the 2nd line. I mean, to be really effective against the other team's best offensive players, you need to be good on both sides of the puck.
Kin
New member
bustaheims said:
That said it's tough to get around the fact that the #2 C's on Cup winners have been guys like Jeff Carter, Malkin(who's obviously a unique case), Krejci, Sharp and so on. Kadri's a good player and he doesn't deserve the somewhat outdated label of a 3rd player but I don't know if he's quite at that level yet.
Which is why the Nylander thing seems so simple to me. He was drafted as a C, he played there in the AHL, he's clearly got the physical tools to play there, why in the world wouldn't the future be something like
Hyman-Matthews-Marner
X-Nylander-X
Leipsic-Kadri-Brown
Someone-Gauthier-Someone else
As opposed to:
Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Leipsic-Kadri-Nylander
????
Fourth Line
Seems to me that by going with the first one you have a real chance of having three effective lines, none of which really deserve to be called a third line the way we think of it.
The question to me really becomes how do you juggle the wingers in that first scenario. I put Hyman and Leipsic there in as place holders but between them, Sosh, Kapanen, guys like Bracco and whoever you might acquire as a free agent or via trade you have more question marks than you do down the middle.
bustaheims
Active member
Nik the Trik said:
I have no problem with that, either. I like the idea of the Leafs having an offence with depth. With the way the game has evolved, I think having a 2A line and a 2B line behind your top line is the model for real success. I also agree that, after a top pairing D, the team's most pressing need is more affordable "top 6" style wingers. There's a number of guys with potential in the system, but, as it tends to be with prospects, most won't pan out. If you can turn JvR into a younger, cheaper winger who's in a similar situation where he was when the Leafs picked him up (high ceiling, but not quite performing to the team's expectations/stuck behind guys who developed a little faster), I think you have to go for it.
herman
Well-known member
I'm very much into playing Nylander down the middle.
Babcock has recently gone on record to say he doesn't want Marner winging for Matthews, because they are both line drivers and he'd like to do that depth offense thing that's so in vogue these days.
It gives our team an opportunity to run three distinct flavours of offense too.
Blue Collar/Top line matchup: Hyman - Matthews - Kapanen
These guys like to just get into the zone and take it to the net. Kapanen gives Matthews a speedy wing to give and go with through the NZ. While Hyman is the quintessential digger, both Kapanen and Matthews can do excellent work in front and behind the net.
E-W Razzle Dazzle/Secondary matchup: Soshnikov - Kadri - Marner
I want Marner with a left Center, and he's pretty crazy good on the backcheck, so it makes sense to me to run him with Kadri, another player that can play that lateral game to open up seams for tap-ins.
Wheel-Snipe-Celly/Defensively suspect: JvR/Leipsic - Nylander - Brown/Bracco
Nylander is disgustingly good on the transition. JvR has a history with playing that kind of game, as do Leipsic/Bracco if they makes the roster (or JvR is traded). Brown is a good wing option for Nylander as well as he has the defensive wherewithal and has played well alongside Nylander on the Marlies in the past.
Zero out: Lindberg - Gauthier/Froese - Froese/Brown
Defense first. Take the DZ draw and truck it into the OZ then work the walls until a change is made. If Brown isn't required up in the top-9, he'd make a nice scoring option down on the 4th. Lindberg and Gauthier are big. If Gauthier is a no-go, Froese fills in.
Babcock has recently gone on record to say he doesn't want Marner winging for Matthews, because they are both line drivers and he'd like to do that depth offense thing that's so in vogue these days.
It gives our team an opportunity to run three distinct flavours of offense too.
Blue Collar/Top line matchup: Hyman - Matthews - Kapanen
These guys like to just get into the zone and take it to the net. Kapanen gives Matthews a speedy wing to give and go with through the NZ. While Hyman is the quintessential digger, both Kapanen and Matthews can do excellent work in front and behind the net.
E-W Razzle Dazzle/Secondary matchup: Soshnikov - Kadri - Marner
I want Marner with a left Center, and he's pretty crazy good on the backcheck, so it makes sense to me to run him with Kadri, another player that can play that lateral game to open up seams for tap-ins.
Wheel-Snipe-Celly/Defensively suspect: JvR/Leipsic - Nylander - Brown/Bracco
Nylander is disgustingly good on the transition. JvR has a history with playing that kind of game, as do Leipsic/Bracco if they makes the roster (or JvR is traded). Brown is a good wing option for Nylander as well as he has the defensive wherewithal and has played well alongside Nylander on the Marlies in the past.
Zero out: Lindberg - Gauthier/Froese - Froese/Brown
Defense first. Take the DZ draw and truck it into the OZ then work the walls until a change is made. If Brown isn't required up in the top-9, he'd make a nice scoring option down on the 4th. Lindberg and Gauthier are big. If Gauthier is a no-go, Froese fills in.
Babcock is just weird with how he deals with these roster decisions. Like nylander only getting a shot at 4th line C and being up and down the lineup all year. It makes me question whether or not he wants him at C long term because of how stubborn he is with other players not playing well but staying put (Hunlak, corrado not getting a shot, the marner bozak jvr line, Hyman with matthews, komarov with kadri.)
I don't mind nylander as the #2C but unless its happening after the deadline this year I don't have any reason to believe its babcocks plan.
I don't mind nylander as the #2C but unless its happening after the deadline this year I don't have any reason to believe its babcocks plan.
Kin
New member
sneakyray said:
I think at this point it's important to remember just how young these guys are.
You know how if a team has a really good player and they're 22 we all say "Wow, how lucky they are to have someone so good, so young"? We're still years away from that. Babcock not doing something right this second now really doesn't reflect too much on long term thinking.
herman
Well-known member
https://thebloggerstribune.com/2016/12/22/the-trade-market-for-james-van-riemsdyk/
JvR trade ideas. Sanheim is interesting. Manson is interesting.
If we pick up an RHD in return, Corrado seems like a natural fit going to other way as a deal balancer. Or Polak, Bob McKenzie-willing.
Is Montreal also an option? Juulsen and Sergachev might incline them towards letting one of them go as Weber has their right side locked. They might be interested in consolidating some divisional scoring power into their own hands, especially during peak Price.
JvR trade ideas. Sanheim is interesting. Manson is interesting.
If we pick up an RHD in return, Corrado seems like a natural fit going to other way as a deal balancer. Or Polak, Bob McKenzie-willing.
Is Montreal also an option? Juulsen and Sergachev might incline them towards letting one of them go as Weber has their right side locked. They might be interested in consolidating some divisional scoring power into their own hands, especially during peak Price.
Kin
New member
Of those suggestions I feel like the Sanheim one is the one I'd be most interested by. I really feel the Leafs need to maybe look a little away from the "Sure he doesn't score points but look at those possession numbers and righthandedness!" types and start taking home run swings. Sanheim is kind of one already, a 1st rounder would let them take another(or draft Sergei Makarov's older brother, preferences may vary).
Frank E
Active member
herman said:
I think this all makes sense, but we've been talking about trading JVR and Bozak for 2 years. It really isn't news that they'll probably move them...the longer they wait though, the less the return.
Since we're at the Christmas break here, I have to think that teams like NYI and Dallas have to start making some moves to get some scoring help.
Kin
New member
I don't know that it needs a professional like Mirtle to explain the pretty simple concept of the Leafs being a few years away, JVR being valuable and his contract posing an obstacle.
He's a good player but the Leafs are in a position to make a deal for him where the return really sort of blows your hair back and they can go into the draft with multiple 1sts, multiple 2nds and add to the prospect base. As good as he is, he's not worth giving that up when the team still has a ways to go.
He's a good player but the Leafs are in a position to make a deal for him where the return really sort of blows your hair back and they can go into the draft with multiple 1sts, multiple 2nds and add to the prospect base. As good as he is, he's not worth giving that up when the team still has a ways to go.
herman
Well-known member
I like to think a good number of us are ahead of the curve, so that article was mostly just repeating a lot of what we've been saying here (which one of you is Mirtle?). I was hoping for some insider theory mongering.
In terms of first rounders coming back, I'd be quite alright with them taking 2018s instead of 2017s.
In terms of first rounders coming back, I'd be quite alright with them taking 2018s instead of 2017s.
herman said:
Was working on another Leafs brass 'speed up the process' pov and wondered if some of the beneficial by product might be added value to minus one year ufa contracts at the following deadline, Komarov, JVR, Bozak
FORWARDS
L. Komarov ($ 2,950,000) --- A. Matthews ($ 925,000) --- W. Nylander ($ 894,166)
J. Van Riemsdyk ($ 4,250,000) --- N. Kadri ($ 4,500,000) --- C. Brown ($ 1,200,000)
N. Soshnikov ($ 736,666) --- T. Bozak ($ 4,200,000) --- M. Marner ($ 894,166)
K. Kapanen ($ 863,333) --- F. Gauthier ($ 863,333) --- Z. Hyman ($ 900,000)
DEFENCE
K. Alzner ($ 6,000,000) --- K. Shat ($ 7,000,000)
M. Rielly ($ 5,000,000) --- N. Zaitsev ($ 4,500,000)
J. Gardiner ($ 4,050,000) --- T. Lily ($ 925,000)
GOAL
F. Andersen ($ 5,000,000) --- K. Kaskisuo ($ 925,000)
Extras
M. Martin ($ 2,500,000) --- R. Valiev ($ 778,333) --- T. Dermott ($ 894,166)
That's a LTIR team, but, between Horton and Lupul it could be interesting. I'm not convinced selling JVR now is a slam dunk better choice than waiting til next year, unless the Leafs really are willing to keep bottoming out and maybe retains now to make it a more attractive option.
Kin
New member
Tigger said:
Considering how team-friendly his contract is and how likely he is to be looking for a raise when it's over, I'm really to struggling to see how trading JVR at any point other than ASAP could possibly be the one where he's at his highest value.
So long as we generally agree that the Leafs have long odds to make the playoffs this year or the next then the term of JVR's deal plus sliding a spot or two in the draft(potentially in both years) seem to be a pretty clear win-win.
Likewise, there's the real possibility that next year's team is closer to the playoffs than this one's probably stands to be and so trading JVR becomes a question of whether the team is "giving up" or not.
So the equation on trading JVR seems pretty straight forward. It's trading him when his remaining term makes him most valuable + his absence could create the greatest draft benefit vs. turning him into a rental and potentially creating a PR problem by dealing him.