Captain Phaneuf

[Jalili]

I think the best thing is to give him 8 years, and hope they can lower the cap hit a bit.

 

[Kin]

So I was listening to Bob McCowan talking hockey today (I know, big mistake...).  And he had the expected discussion with whatever person he was talking with about Phaneuf's contract extension rumours, and how overpaid he could end up being.  So he was trying to establish Phaneuf's standing as a defenseman in the league to roughly establish his value.  Paraphrasing, it went like this:

BM:  "Let me ask you this:  Would Phaneuf be the #1 defenseman on all 30 NHL teams?"
Other guy:  "No."
BM:  "Right.  So therefore we can conclude that Phaneuf isn't one of the 30 best defensemen in the league."

I swear to God he said that.  I don't know whether I consider that bizarre, grade school level argument and conclusion a greater affront to my hockey sensibilities or to my intellectual sensibilities.

No, Bob, you haven't established that Dion isn't one of the top 30 NHL defensemen, you've established he isn't one of the top 1 NHL defensemen.

I just listened to it and while I think he's wrong substantively(and kind of embarrassingly so as he breaks out his "I'm not familiar enough with the situation" answer whenever he's asked any specific questions about the league) what he says really isn't as jumbled as that. Verbatim, this the conversation

McCown: How many other teams would he be the #1 defenseman on?

Kypreos: I don't argue, I-I, there's only one that matters

McCown: Maybe one or two?

Kypreos: There's one in Toronto, I know for sure

McCown: Then, by that analysis, he's no better than the 30th best defenseman in the NHL.

Brunt: But I think he is better than that,

McCown: I don't think he is

Brunt: I think if we start going through team by team we could find him a home

McCown: I'm not saying we couldn't find him a home, but I'm saying where would he be the #1 defenseman would he be the best defenseman, the #1 defenseman, on how many other teams would he be the #1 defenseman, and, if you can't find one, by pure math he cannot be any better than the 31st defenseman because you've established 30 guys-

Brunt: Well, he's the #1 defenseman on the best team in the Eastern Conference right now, that's what he is.

So I think McCown is wrong, I think there's at least a dozen teams where Phaneuf is their #1 defenseman but it does at least conform to an internal logic.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

So I was listening to Bob McCown talking hockey today (I know, big mistake...).  And he had the expected discussion with whatever person he was talking with about Phaneuf's contract extension rumours, and how overpaid he could end up being.  So he was trying to establish Phaneuf's standing as a defenseman in the league to roughly establish his value.  Paraphrasing, it went like this:

BM:  "Let me ask you this:  Would Phaneuf be the #1 defenseman on all 30 NHL teams?"
Other guy:  "No."
BM:  "Right.  So therefore we can conclude that Phaneuf isn't one of the 30 best defensemen in the league."

I swear to God he said that.  I don't know whether I consider that bizarre, grade school level argument and conclusion a greater affront to my hockey sensibilities or to my intellectual sensibilities.

No, Bob, you haven't established that Dion isn't one of the top 30 NHL defensemen, you've established he isn't one of the top 1 NHL defensemen.

I just listened to it and while I think he's wrong substantively(and kind of embarrassingly so as he breaks out his "I'm not familiar enough with the situation" answer whenever he's asked any specific questions about the league) what he says really isn't as jumbled as that. Verbatim, this the conversation

McCown: How many other teams would he be the #1 defenseman on?

Kypreos: I don't argue, I-I, there's only one that matters

McCown: Maybe one or two?

Kypreos: There's one in Toronto, I know for sure

McCown: Then, by that analysis, he's no better than the 30th best defenseman in the NHL.

Brunt: But I think he is better than that,

McCown: I don't think he is

Brunt: I think if we start going through team by team we could find him a home

McCown: I'm not saying we couldn't find him a home, but I'm saying where would he be the #1 defenseman would he be the best defenseman, the #1 defenseman, on how many other teams would he be the #1 defenseman, and, if you can't find one, by pure math he cannot be any better than the 31st defenseman because you've established 30 guys-

Brunt: Well, he's the #1 defenseman on the best team in the Eastern Conference right now, that's what he is.

So I think McCown is wrong, I think there's at least a dozen teams where Phaneuf is their #1 defenseman but it does at least conform to an internal logic.

Wow, I commend you for your work in trying to track the exact quotes down, but unfortunately that's not the conversation I'm referring to.  It looks like what you listened to was him later expounding on his thoughts that I heard earlier in his first hour, talking with Neil Smith.  I just re-listened to what I'd heard, and here it is:

BM:  "He's the best defenseman on a group of mediocre, at best, defensemen."
NS:  "Precisely, but he's going to be overvalued."
BM:  "Is he one of the 30 best defensemen in the National Hockey League?  Think about before you answer."
NS:  "Meaning, could he be a #1 defenseman on any team?  That's what you're saying, could he be the #1 defenseman on any team in the league?"
BM:  "Yeah."
NS:  "No."
BM:  "So he's not one of the 30 best defensemen in the National Hockey League.  There are at least 30 defensemen that you would consider to be better than him.  That's not unreasonable.  How do you pay a guy who's not one of the top 30 at his position 7 million dollars a year?"

It's a horrible argument made with great confidence.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

So their argument is because he can't be #1 on every team in the league that means he's not top 30 D in the league?

 

[Zee]

I don't think McCowan is among the 30 best sports reporters in Toronto.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I'd absolutely love to see his list of the top-30 defencemen in the league. I can only assume 10 through 30 are <blank>.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I'd absolutely love to see his list of the top-30 defencemen in the league. I can only assume 10 through 30 are <blank>.

Not familiar enough with the situation.

 

[Corn Flake]

I think Dion and his agent know he can go to the Oilers in the summer for probably $8 mil / year.  They have a very recent history of overpaying... well, every player.... and they are clearly desperate for some major improvements on defense.  Bringing Phaneuf home to Edm would be huge for them.

Kypreos keeps saying the "starting point" is $50 mil / 7.  Well which side is starting there? If it's Phaneuf's side then in all likelihood the total price comes down from there. I don't think the Leafs would throw down a flat out number like that and publicize it but I could be wrong.

In the grand scheme if Phaneuf gets $7x7 I'm not really sure it's worth freaking out about.  if he was signed at $6.5 I think most level headed people would be pretty ecstatic with that amount, so for $500k more??? meh.

 

[Corn Flake]

I'd absolutely love to see his list of the top-30 defencemen in the league. I can only assume 10 through 30 are <blank>.

I'm not sure he could name 30 d-men in the league.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I'd absolutely love to see his list of the top-30 defencemen in the league. I can only assume 10 through 30 are <blank>.

I'm not sure he could name 30 d-men in the league.

Nik Lidstrom would probably still be on it. Pronger too.

 

[Corn Flake]

I just can't even....

@RealBillWatters

7.1 Mil for 8 yrs? Are you kidding? For Phaneuf? I'm sorry, this is an outrageous misrepresentation of his value. 4 years @ 4 mil per is risky.

If only he had any credibility left to lose.

I have to agree with this one. Waters is.....out there.

Watters has been babbling anti-Phaneuf and anti-Kessel gibberish for years and all they've done is prove him to be the fool.  He's now fully down the road of crazy old man ranting and raving from the back corner of the old folks home common room.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Kypreos keeps saying the "starting point" is $50 mil / 7.  Well which side is starting there? If it's Phaneuf's side then in all likelihood the total price comes down from there. I don't think the Leafs would throw down a flat out number like that and publicize it but I could be wrong.

And who knows, because today Cox says there have been no discussions, no preliminary discussions, and no numbers yet.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

I just can't even....

@RealBillWatters

7.1 Mil for 8 yrs? Are you kidding? For Phaneuf? I'm sorry, this is an outrageous misrepresentation of his value. 4 years @ 4 mil per is risky.

I agree.  There's no way Phaneuf should be paid more than Jim McKenny or Ian Turnbull.

 

[Kin]

Wow, I commend you for your work in trying to track the exact quotes down, but unfortunately that's not the conversation I'm referring to.  It looks like what you listened to was him later expounding on his thoughts that I heard earlier in his first hour, talking with Neil Smith.  I just re-listened to what I'd heard, and here it is:

Oh, fair enough. I only responded with the "work" I did because I happened to be listening to the Kypreos conversation as I was reading your post. Either way, it's not much of an argument.

 

[Crucialness Key]

Wow, I commend you for your work in trying to track the exact quotes down, but unfortunately that's not the conversation I'm referring to.  It looks like what you listened to was him later expounding on his thoughts that I heard earlier in his first hour, talking with Neil Smith.  I just re-listened to what I'd heard, and here it is:

Oh, fair enough. I only responded with the "work" I did because I happened to be listening to the Kypreos conversation as I was reading your post. Either way, it's not much of an argument.

"One of these 30 guys is better than Phaneuf"
therefore
"All of these 30 guys are better than Phaneuf"

LOGIC FAIL

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I don't think the media has watched a Leaf game all season. They base it on his overall play from the start of his Leaf career and maybe the rumours they heard from Calgary. The guy has been a beast since last season. Open your eyes Bill and Bob.

I think Corn Flake nailed what Bill Watters is now.

 

[Kin]

Just off the top of my head, this is a list of teams I think he'd for sure be the #1 on:

Florida
Tampa
Carolina
Dallas
Anaheim
NYI
Edmonton
Buffalo
Columbus
New Jersey

So that's 10. I think there are some other clubs where it would be an interesting discussion(Calgary, Philadelphia, Vancouver, so on) so that probably puts him among the top 25 which seems about right.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Just off the top of my head, this is a list of teams I think he'd for sure be the #1 on:

Florida
Tampa
Carolina
Dallas
Anaheim
NYI
Edmonton
Buffalo
Columbus
New Jersey

So that's 10. I think there are some other clubs where it would be an interesting discussion(Calgary, Philadelphia, Vancouver, so on) so that probably puts him among the top 25 which seems about right.

I think you can also safely include Toronto on your list.

 

[Kin]

Just off the top of my head, this is a list of teams I think he'd for sure be the #1 on:

Florida
Tampa
Carolina
Dallas
Anaheim
NYI
Edmonton
Buffalo
Columbus
New Jersey

So that's 10. I think there are some other clubs where it would be an interesting discussion(Calgary, Philadelphia, Vancouver, so on) so that probably puts him among the top 25 which seems about right.

I think you can also safely include Toronto on your list.

I'm holding out hope for a healthy Mark Fraser.

 

[Champ Kind]

I think Corn Flake nailed what Bill Watters is now.

Actually, Corn Flake has been saying this for a long time now, at least since I joined this site 6 years ago.

Poor, poor Bill.