Captain Phaneuf

[Joe S.]

I just can't even....

@RealBillWatters

7.1 Mil for 8 yrs? Are you kidding? For Phaneuf? I'm sorry, this is an outrageous misrepresentation of his value. 4 years @ 4 mil per is risky.

I didn't even know he was still alive.

 

[Britishbulldog]

Just off the top of my head, this is a list of teams I think he'd for sure be the #1 on:

Florida
Tampa
Carolina
Dallas
Anaheim
NYI
Edmonton
Buffalo
Columbus
New Jersey

So that's 10. I think there are some other clubs where it would be an interesting discussion(Calgary, Philadelphia, Vancouver, so on) so that probably puts him among the top 25 which seems about right.

I think you can also safely include Toronto on your list.

I'm holding out hope for a healthy Mark Fraser.

That's my pick.  I have never seen Phaneuf fight like Mark Fraser. 

 

[bustaheims]

BM:  "Is he one of the 30 best defensemen in the National Hockey League?  Think about before you answer."
NS:  "Meaning, could he be a #1 defenseman on any team?  That's what you're saying, could he be the #1 defenseman on any team in the league?"

This is my favourite part, because, I mean, that's not what being one of the top 30 defencemen means at all. I'm no fan of McCowan - especially when it comes to hockey, which he frequent admits to not really knowing much about - but it's really Neil Smith who leads things down the absurd path with that horrible misinterpretation.

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

BM:  "Is he one of the 30 best defensemen in the National Hockey League?  Think about before you answer."
NS:  "Meaning, could he be a #1 defenseman on any team?  That's what you're saying, could he be the #1 defenseman on any team in the league?"

This is my favourite part, because, I mean, that's not what being one of the top 30 defencemen means at all. I'm no fan of McCowan - especially when it comes to hockey, which he frequent admits to not really knowing much about - but it's really Neil Smith who leads things down the absurd path with that horrible misinterpretation.

But I think Smith was only following McCown's intended direction when McCown initially asked him, "Is he one of the 30 best defensemen in the National Hockey League?"  I think he correctly figured out exactly where Bob was going with his line of thinking and confirmed it to Bob in his response, specifically when he asked Bob, "That's what you're saying, could he be the #1 defenseman on any team in the league?", and Bob answered "Yeah".

But Smith certainly should have had the brains and/or balls to tell McCown that it's a preposterous argument.

 

[ZBBM]

BM:  "Is he one of the 30 best defensemen in the National Hockey League?  Think about before you answer."
NS:  "Meaning, could he be a #1 defenseman on any team?  That's what you're saying, could he be the #1 defenseman on any team in the league?"

This is my favourite part, because, I mean, that's not what being one of the top 30 defencemen means at all. I'm no fan of McCowan - especially when it comes to hockey, which he frequent admits to not really knowing much about - but it's really Neil Smith who leads things down the absurd path with that horrible misinterpretation.

Exactly Busta -- but McCowan bears responsibility too.  Just as an exercise in logic (or in this case, the failure thereof) let's break it down:

BM:  "Is he one of the 30 best defensemen in the National Hockey League?  Think about before you answer."
Straightforward question.
NS:  "Meaning, could he be a #1 defenseman on any team?  That's what you're saying, could he be the #1 defenseman on any team in the league?"
Smith completely misinterprets.  What he's asking is whether Phaneuf is the best defenseman in the league, because by definition the best defenseman in the league, and only that defenseman, could be best defenseman on any one team in the league.
BM:  "Yeah."
McCowan here either shows he didn't even understand his own question, or else (more charitably) in the flow of radio talk he's willing to pivot to Smith's very different question.
NS:  "No."
Smith delivers his opinion: Phaneuf is not the top defenseman in the league.
BM:  "So he's not one of the 30 best defensemen in the National Hockey League.  There are at least 30 defensemen that you would consider to be better than him.  That's not unreasonable.  How do you pay a guy who's not one of the top 30 at his position 7 million dollars a year?"
McCowan shows that he DIDN'T understand that Smith's interpretation of the original question is a misinterpretation.

My conclusion is that neither guy really knows what he's talking about .... literally.

 

[bustaheims]

Oh, I'm not saying McCowan didn't have a part in it. In fact, I think he loved the fact that Smith so terribly misinterpreted what he asked, because it gave him such a beautiful opening to release some absurd criticism of his own.

 

[ZBBM]

Oh, I'm not saying McCowan didn't have a part in it. In fact, I think he loved the fact that Smith so terribly misinterpreted what he asked, because it gave him such a beautiful opening to release some absurd criticism of his own.

Theater of the absurd, eh?  Well, if he knew that Smith misintrepreted him, but went ahead and pretended not to know, then what we have here is meta-absurdity.

EDIT: OR ... maybe Smith KNEW he was misinterpreting, and laid it out as bait for McCowan, betting that McCowan would bluster on and expose himself as not having understood that Smith was misintepreting ... which he did.  In which case Smith is an evil genius.

 

[bustaheims]

Theater of the absurd, eh?  Well, if he knew that Smith misintrepreted him, but went ahead and pretended not to know, then what we have here is meta-absurdity.

Par for the course for Bob McCowan and Prime Time Sports.

 

[Kin]

It really is getting harder and harder to believe that nobody has given Smith another shot to run a NHL team.

 

[Zee]

I haven't listened to Bob McCowan for years, he's just too annoying to listen to.  I hate the long dramatic pauses when he speaks, the pronouncements he makes where he leaves no doubt that he knows all and everyone else's opinion is worthless, and the general condescending attitude he has.  Other than that he's ok.

 

[jdh1]

My 2 cents opinion would like to trade Phaneuf...I don't see him as a cornerstone defenceman for a Stanley Cup team.

 

[Beowulf]

Just off the top of my head, this is a list of teams I think he'd for sure be the #1 on:

Florida
Tampa
Carolina
Dallas
Anaheim
NYI
Edmonton
Buffalo
Columbus
New Jersey

So that's 10. I think there are some other clubs where it would be an interesting discussion(Calgary, Philadelphia, Vancouver, so on) so that probably puts him among the top 25 which seems about right.

100% agreed on the 10 you mentioned. In addition to those, I would for sure have:

Colorado (better than E.Johnson or Hejda, Benoit, Barrie)

NYR (better than Staal or Del Zotto) - I don't think Staal has really had the chance to build two solid seasons in 09-10, 10-11. In the past two campaigns injuries have robbed him of significant time. I think I'd rank Dion above him.

Then we have the 3 teams you mentioned:

Calgary: Wideman and Giordano are their top 2 currently (well on paper anyway as Giordano is out for 4-6 weeks atm) - regardless, of the two I'd definitely say Wideman is the #1. I think I would edge Phaneuf ahead of them but I might be biased by how little I see of them overall and how well Dion has played lately. No doubt they log a lot of ice time in all situations just like he does but I'll give Dion the edge.

Philadelphia: Excluding Pronger, I'd definitely put Dion ahead of Coburn, Streit or Schenn. Then you have Kimmo Timonen who is a quite remarkable model of durability and consistency over his past 12 seasons (he's missed at TOTAL of 34 games in that time). It's a tough call to put Dion above him since Timonen is also another guy who has typically played in all situations in his career (PK, PP, top pairings). It's easy to look at Dion's start to the season combined with Timonen's 0 points and the fact that he's now 38 and give it to Dion. But Timonen is playing on a really atrocious Philly team devoid of any offense. However, he's also not being played as an outright top pairing guy anymore and certainly less in all situations than he used to. Give the edge to Dion but would love to see what Timonen could still do on a non-bottom dweller.

Vancouver: Edler is a physical, mobile, all situations guy who is very comparable to Dion. I'm not sure I'd rank Dion ahead of him.

Overall though I'd feel pretty safe putting Dion in the top 20 for sure.

 

[Kin]

I think I would edge Phaneuf ahead of them but I might be biased by how little I see of them overall and how well Dion has played lately.

I was intentionally pretty conservative with that list in large part because I think it's a little unfair to rank Phaneuf too highly just based on his last twelve games. I mean, Dan Girardi is the guy who's actually been the Rangers' #1 guy in terms of TOI the last few years and I think he's a really good player but he's gotten off to a lousy start like the rest of his team so right now he doesn't look like much of a choice.

edit: Anyways, I don't think there's much difference here. I think most people would agree that Phaneuf probably falls somewhere in the 10-25 range. The problem there is that's kind of a problematic area where yeah, you know, that makes someone a valuable player but if he is your #1 that means your on the bottom half, or the bottom of the top half, in terms of teams' #1 defensemen when a contender really wants to be at the top.

 

[Britishbulldog]

Top 50 Cap Hits

Who is better than Phaneuf in the list?  Delete everyone else.

Player Pos Team Age Start End Length Amount
1. Weber, Shea ? D NAS 28 2012 2026 14 $7,857,143
2. Suter, Ryan ? D MIN 28 2012 2025 13 $7,538,462
3. Campbell, Brian ? D FLA 34 2008 2016 8 $7,142,875
4. Doughty, Drew ? D LAK 23 2011 2019 8 $7,000,000
5. Chara, Zdeno ? D BOS 36 2011 2018 7 $6,916,667
6. Bouwmeester, Jay ? D STL 30 2009 2014 5 $6,680,000
7. Boyle, Dan ? D SJS 37 2008 2014 6 $6,666,667
8. Phaneuf, Dion ? D TOR 28 2008 2014 6 $6,500,000
9. Karlsson, Erik ? D OTT 23 2012 2019 7 $6,500,000
10. Pietrangelo, Alex ? D STL 23 2013 2020 7 $6,500,000
11. Green, Mike ? D WAS 28 2012 2015 3 $6,083,333
12. Timonen, Kimmo ? D PHI 38 2013 2014 1 $6,000,000
13. Seabrook, Brent ? D CHI 28 2011 2016 5 $5,800,000
14. Markov, Andrei ? D MTL 34 2011 2014 3 $5,750,000
15. Enstrom, Tobias ? D WPG 28 2013 2018 5 $5,750,000
16. Keith, Duncan ? D CHI 30 2010 2023 13 $5,538,462
17. Wisniewski, James ? D CLB 29 2011 2017 6 $5,500,000
18. Myers, Tyler ? D BUF 23 2012 2019 7 $5,500,000
19. Carle, Matt ? D TBL 29 2012 2018 6 $5,500,000
20. Ekman-Larsson, Oliver ? D PHX 22 2013 2019 6 $5,500,000
21. Yandle, Keith ? D PHX 27 2011 2016 5 $5,250,000
22. Wideman, Dennis ? D CGY 30 2012 2017 5 $5,250,000
23. Streit, Mark ? D PHI 35 2013 2017 4 $5,250,000
24. Byfuglien, Dustin ? D WPG 28 2011 2016 5 $5,200,000
25. Bogosian, Zach ? D WPG 23 2013 2020 7 $5,142,857
26. Martin, Paul ? D PIT 32 2010 2015 5 $5,000,000
27. Edler, Alexander ? D VAN 27 2013 2019 6 $5,000,000
28. Gonchar, Sergei ? D DAL 39 2013 2015 2 $5,000,000
29. Pronger, Chris ? D PHI 39 2010 2017 7 $4,941,429
30. Kronwall, Niklas ? D DET 32 2012 2019 7 $4,750,000
31. Visnovsky, Lubomir ? D NYI 37 2013 2015 2 $4,750,000
32. McDonagh, Ryan ? D NYR 24 2013 2019 6 $4,700,000
33. Bieksa, Kevin ? D VAN 32 2011 2016 5 $4,600,000
34. Goligoski, Alex ? D DAL 28 2012 2016 4 $4,600,000
35. Garrison, Jason ? D VAN 28 2012 2018 6 $4,600,000
36. Hamhuis, Dan ? D VAN 30 2010 2016 6 $4,500,000
37. Pitkanen, Joni ? D CAR 30 2011 2014 3 $4,500,000
38. Tyutin, Fedor ? D CLB 30 2012 2018 6 $4,500,000
39. Coburn, Braydon ? D PHI 28 2012 2016 4 $4,500,000
40. Johnson, Jack ? D CLB 26 2011 2018 7 $4,357,143
41. Volchenkov, Anton ? D NJD 31 2010 2016 6 $4,250,000
42. Vlasic, Marc-Edouard ? D SJS 26 2013 2018 5 $4,250,000
43. Shattenkirk, Kevin ? D STL 24 2013 2017 4 $4,250,000
44. Voynov, Slava ? D LAK 23 2013 2019 6 $4,166,667
45. Jovanovski, Ed ? D FLA 37 2011 2015 4 $4,125,000
46. Giordano, Mark ? D CGY 30 2011 2016 5 $4,020,000
47. Meszaros, Andrej ? D PHI 28 2008 2014 6 $4,000,000
48. Michalek, Zbynek ? D PHX 30 2010 2015 5 $4,000,000
49. Ehrhoff, Christian ? D BUF 31 2011 2021 10 $4,000,000
50. Hedman, Victor ? D TBL 22 2012 2017 5 $4,000,000

 

[Heroic Shrimp]

Top 50 Cap Hits

Who is better than Phaneuf in the list?  Delete everyone else.

And add Subban, not (yet) on the list.

 

[Beowulf]

I mean, Dan Girardi is the guy who's actually been the Rangers' #1 guy in terms of TOI the last few years and I think he's a really good player but he's gotten off to a lousy start like the rest of his team so right now he doesn't look like much of a choice.

I forgot about Girardi. He'd definitely be in the conversation all things being equal.

The problem there is that's kind of a problematic area where yeah, you know, that makes someone a valuable player but if he is your #1 that means your on the bottom half, or the bottom of the top half, in terms of teams' #1 defensemen when a contender really wants to be at the top.

It's a good point. Looking back at recent cup winners the only one without a clear top defenseman were the Hurricanes in 05-06. Other than that the Hawks (Keith), Kings (Doughty), Bruins (Chara), Penguins (Letang), Red Wings (Lidstrom), Anaheim (Pronger), Tampa Bay (Boyle), New Jersey (Niedermayer), Colorado (Blake/Bourque/Foote), etc. etc. all had d-men that I think most would safely rank in the top 10 (and many top 5) in those respective seasons.

I guess there are two key and probably obvious questions when it comes to Dion:

1) Can he be consistent and sustain his current level of play over a full season?

2) Is his current level play at the level of a top 10 defenseman in this league?

 

[Champ Kind]

Top 50 Cap Hits

Who is better than Phaneuf in the list?  Delete everyone else.

Player Pos Team Age Start End Length Amount
1. Weber, Shea ? D NAS 28 2012 2026 14 $7,857,143
2. Suter, Ryan ? D MIN 28 2012 2025 13 $7,538,462
3. Campbell, Brian ? D FLA 34 2008 2016 8 $7,142,875
4. Doughty, Drew ? D LAK 23 2011 2019 8 $7,000,000
5. Chara, Zdeno ? D BOS 36 2011 2018 7 $6,916,667
6. Bouwmeester, Jay ? D STL 30 2009 2014 5 $6,680,000
7. Boyle, Dan ? D SJS 37 2008 2014 6 $6,666,667

8. Phaneuf, Dion ? D TOR 28 2008 2014 6 $6,500,000
9. Karlsson, Erik ? D OTT 23 2012 2019 7 $6,500,000
10. Pietrangelo, Alex ? D STL 23 2013 2020 7 $6,500,000
11. Green, Mike ? D WAS 28 2012 2015 3 $6,083,333
12. Timonen, Kimmo ? D PHI 38 2013 2014 1 $6,000,000[/s
]13. Seabrook, Brent ? D CHI 28 2011 2016 5 $5,800,000
14. Markov, Andrei ? D MTL 34 2011 2014 3 $5,750,000
15. Enstrom, Tobias ? D WPG 28 2013 2018 5 $5,750,00016. Keith, Duncan ? D CHI 30 2010 2023 13 $5,538,462
17. Wisniewski, James ? D CLB 29 2011 2017 6 $5,500,000
18. Myers, Tyler ? D BUF 23 2012 2019 7 $5,500,000
19. Carle, Matt ? D TBL 29 2012 2018 6 $5,500,000
20. Ekman-Larsson, Oliver ? D PHX 22 2013 2019 6 $5,500,000
21. Yandle, Keith ? D PHX 27 2011 2016 5 $5,250,000
22. Wideman, Dennis ? D CGY 30 2012 2017 5 $5,250,000
23. Streit, Mark ? D PHI 35 2013 2017 4 $5,250,000
24. Byfuglien, Dustin ? D WPG 28 2011 2016 5 $5,200,00025. Bogosian, Zach ? D WPG 23 2013 2020 7 $5,142,857
26. Martin, Paul ? D PIT 32 2010 2015 5 $5,000,000
27. Edler, Alexander ? D VAN 27 2013 2019 6 $5,000,000
28. Gonchar, Sergei ? D DAL 39 2013 2015 2 $5,000,000
29. Pronger, Chris ? D PHI 39 2010 2017 7 $4,941,429
30. Kronwall, Niklas ? D DET 32 2012 2019 7 $4,750,000
31. Visnovsky, Lubomir ? D NYI 37 2013 2015 2 $4,750,000
32. McDonagh, Ryan ? D NYR 24 2013 2019 6 $4,700,000
33. Bieksa, Kevin ? D VAN 32 2011 2016 5 $4,600,000
34. Goligoski, Alex ? D DAL 28 2012 2016 4 $4,600,000
35. Garrison, Jason ? D VAN 28 2012 2018 6 $4,600,000
36. Hamhuis, Dan ? D VAN 30 2010 2016 6 $4,500,000
37. Pitkanen, Joni ? D CAR 30 2011 2014 3 $4,500,000
38. Tyutin, Fedor ? D CLB 30 2012 2018 6 $4,500,000
39. Coburn, Braydon ? D PHI 28 2012 2016 4 $4,500,000
40. Johnson, Jack ? D CLB 26 2011 2018 7 $4,357,143
41. Volchenkov, Anton ? D NJD 31 2010 2016 6 $4,250,000
42. Vlasic, Marc-Edouard ? D SJS 26 2013 2018 5 $4,250,000
43. Shattenkirk, Kevin ? D STL 24 2013 2017 4 $4,250,000
44. Voynov, Slava ? D LAK 23 2013 2019 6 $4,166,667
45. Jovanovski, Ed ? D FLA 37 2011 2015 4 $4,125,000
46. Giordano, Mark ? D CGY 30 2011 2016 5 $4,020,000
47. Meszaros, Andrej ? D PHI 28 2008 2014 6 $4,000,000
48. Michalek, Zbynek ? D PHX 30 2010 2015 5 $4,000,000
49. Ehrhoff, Christian ? D BUF 31 2011 2021 10 $4,000,000
50. Hedman, Victor ? D TBL 22 2012 2017 5 $4,000,000

OK, I'll play.

In the end, there are not many I'd rather have.  As noted, I'd put PK on the 'greater than' list, as well.

 

[Beowulf]

I don't think going by cap hits alone is the way to judge his relative strength as it excludes guys like Subban and Pietrangelo whoops forgot he was there (who I would  rank higher than Dion at this point)

But of your list these are the guys that are either outright better or where it's pretty close:

Top 50 Cap Hits

Who is better than Phaneuf in the list?  Delete everyone else.

Player Pos Team Age Start End Length Amount
1. Weber, Shea ? D NAS 28 2012 2026 14 $7,857,143
2. Suter, Ryan ? D MIN 28 2012 2025 13 $7,538,462
4. Doughty, Drew ? D LAK 23 2011 2019 8 $7,000,000
5. Chara, Zdeno ? D BOS 36 2011 2018 7 $6,916,667
7. Boyle, Dan ? D SJS 37 2008 2014 6 $6,666,667
9. Karlsson, Erik ? D OTT 23 2012 2019 7 $6,500,000
10. Pietrangelo, Alex ? D STL 23 2013 2020 7 $6,500,000
11. Green, Mike ? D WAS 28 2012 2015 3 $6,083,333
12. Timonen, Kimmo ? D PHI 38 2013 2014 1 $6,000,000
16. Keith, Duncan ? D CHI 30 2010 2023 13 $5,538,462
20. Ekman-Larsson, Oliver ? D PHX 22 2013 2019 6 $5,500,000
21. Yandle, Keith ? D PHX 27 2011 2016 5 $5,250,000
24. Byfuglien, Dustin ? D WPG 28 2011 2016 5 $5,200,000
27. Edler, Alexander ? D VAN 27 2013 2019 6 $5,000,000
30. Kronwall, Niklas ? D DET 32 2012 2019 7 $4,750,000

 

[Kin]

My list would be roughly similar to Beowulf's but I'd probably include Girardi, Seabrook, Letang, Subban and McDonagh as guys who should be in the conversation as well. Again, the question for me boils down more to which Dion Phaneuf we're talking about.

 

[ZBBM]

Again, the question for me boils down more to which Dion Phaneuf we're talking about.

NewDion vs. OldDion?