Contracts for the Big-3

[sickbeast]

Also, the idea of trading Nylander may not be as easily said and done -- teams may want the Leafs to sign him up -- even a bridge deal for less -- so that their cap hit in acquiring him will not be too deep.

I think what we will see happen will be similar to what happened when we acquired Andersen.  The Leafs will give teams an opportunity to work out a deal with Nylander, for a price.  My guess is they will get two first round picks and a second, or something in that range.  Either that or else some type of defenseman.

I don't expect Nylander will be back at this point.  If he does come back it will be on a very team friendly deal and even then he could probably be used as trade bait.  Perhaps even more so.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

 

[Phileas Fogg]

The greedy player argument is still amusing to me in the context of billionaires.  If the Leafs got to pay players 50% less they sure as hell aren't reducing ticket prices.

I don't think anyone is saying the Leafs shouldn't spend to the cap. Virtually all of the concern seem to hinge around management of it. So I'm not sure how the "rich ownership" angle works here. Even if the cap was doubled, or even tripled, Nylander would still expecting a fair salary based on comparables, regardless of the multiplier, and the concerns in this thread wouldn't change much.

 

[Kin]

The greedy player argument is still amusing to me in the context of billionaires.  If the Leafs got to pay players 50% less they sure as hell aren't reducing ticket prices.

I think the greedy player argument makes sense inasmuch as we can see from this thread that some fans have no real interest or affinity for the players but only see them as a means to an end. It's hard to argue that players should get a square deal with people who don't actually care about the players.

But beyond that, I've just never understood why people were reluctant to come around to the idea that even if their only interest was in the Leafs winning that the cap would probably be bad for that.

 

[sickbeast]

The greedy player argument is still amusing to me in the context of billionaires.  If the Leafs got to pay players 50% less they sure as hell aren't reducing ticket prices.

I don't think anyone is saying the Leafs shouldn't spend to the cap. Virtually all of the concern seem to hinge around management of it. So I'm not sure how the "rich ownership" angle works here. Even if the cap was doubled, or even tripled, Nylander would still expecting a fair salary based on comparables, regardless of the multiplier, and the concerns in this thread wouldn't change much.

The thing is, at this point, it seems like addition by subtraction with Nylander.  You guys have seen the videos of Nylander refusing to block shots, yes?  That screams of a "me first" mentality.  Look at how well Auston Matthews is doing with Kapanen, a guy who plays hard, plays well defensively, and does all the little things.

 

[Zee]

The greedy player argument is still amusing to me in the context of billionaires.  If the Leafs got to pay players 50% less they sure as hell aren't reducing ticket prices.

I think the greedy player argument makes sense inasmuch as we can see from this thread that some fans have no real interest or affinity for the players but only see them as a means to an end. It's hard to argue that players should get a square deal with people who don't actually care about the players.

But beyond that, I've just never understood why people were reluctant to come around to the idea that even if their only interest was in the Leafs winning that the cap would probably be bad for that.

I really don't understand the point you're trying to make here.  You can have an affinity for the players to the point where you think the player is being reasonable in his current situation.  Many fans think Nylander is being unreasonable in asking for $8M or more based on his contract comparables, most notably, Pastrnak.  Given that Nylander won't seem to settle for something that would help the Leafs cap situation, fans can be upset about this as it hurts the Leafs in their quest to become a Stanley Cup champion.

I know you've gone on record in the past as saying you don't care if the Leafs ever win a Cup in your lifetime, as you're just interested in the Leafs being a contender year in and year out even if they never win a Cup.  I'm not of that mind.  I have waited over 40 years watching this team flounder, and I want a Stanley Cup.  If that means some players will have to fall in line to make that happen I'm all for that.

Also, I realize the cap is a bad system for teams like the Leafs in their goal to become a champion, but I have no control over that.  It's not like anything I can say or do will change the NHL system, so the Leafs have to live with it just like every other team. 

I don't get what your position is, apparently you're all "pro player", so are you a Leafs fan or not?  Do you even care if the Leafs can win a Cup or are you just happy to see players flourish, get paid as much money as they can, and so be it?  As a Leafs fan, I want the team to be as successful as they can be, and in this case that means Nylander will have to make a sacrifice for that to happen.  Nylander will make a ton of money in his career regardless of whether he gets a contract with a $6 or and $8 as the starting number, so it's difficult for the average fan to really feel that badly for him.

 

[Bullfrog]

The thing is, at this point, it seems like addition by subtraction with Nylander.  You guys have seen the videos of Nylander refusing to block shots, yes?  That screams of a "me first" mentality.  Look at how well Auston Matthews is doing with Kapanen, a guy who plays hard, plays well defensively, and does all the little things.

Come on now. Addition by subtraction? He's 22 years old and has two straight 60 point seasons. That is very high-end production for a young player.

Not blocking shots screams to me "I don't want to get injured". It also tells me he's probably listening to the coaches. Here's an article with Rask asking his players to not try to stop the puck:

?Just stay in the lane and try not to play goalie,? Rask said of what he wants from the men in front of him. ?A lot of times when you try to stop it like a goalie, you open up holes and screen the goalie even more. Our guys do a pretty good job of focusing on the puck, staying in the lane, and not trying to do too much.?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Last season 5-on-5 stats:

Marner 0.23 blocks per game
Nylander 0.22 blocks per game
Kapanen 0.18 blocks per game

Kapanen's blocked 1 shot at 5-on-5 this season. I guess Nylander's blocked 0 though.

 

[herman]

Lol

 

[Kin]

I really don't understand the point you're trying to make here.

That's because you seem to be responding to a comment that isn't really about the current situation with Nylander under that the premise that it is entirely Nylander focused. The post of mine that LK is referencing is about people's attitudes during the labour disputes.

I know you've gone on record in the past as saying you don't care if the Leafs ever win a Cup in your lifetime, as you're just interested in the Leafs being a contender year in and year out even if they never win a Cup.

I'm pretty sure I haven't gone on record with saying that. I may have said I wouldn't let it define me though.

Also, I realize the cap is a bad system for teams like the Leafs in their goal to become a champion, but I have no control over that.  It's not like anything I can say or do will change the NHL system, so the Leafs have to live with it just like every other team.

Similarly, I have no real control over whether or not the Leafs win a championship. As such, I don't let the pursuit of it determine how I behave or particularly influence how I feel about other things. That's not "not caring". It's just accepting the overall reality of my influence over being a sports fan, the reality of what is effectively a passive hobby.

I don't get what your position is, apparently you're all "pro player", so are you a Leafs fan or not?

I wouldn't define myself as explicitly "pro-player" particularly. Broadly speaking I might say politically I'm pro-labour but only that is in the context of the way labour has generally speaking gotten the short end of the stick in the last 30 years or so(see the % of new wealth generated that's actually gone to working people)

If I woke up tomorrow and no players were making more than 200k that would be fine by me provided that 200k was a genuine reflection of a top player's worth, negotiated in a free and fair environment. What I object to is the clamping down on player salaries not as an accurate reflection of player value but to artificially lower salaries purely in the interests of teams and their billionaire owners.

Nylander will make a ton of money in his career regardless of whether he gets a contract with a $6 or and $8 as the starting number, so it's difficult for the average fan to really feel that badly for him.

Again, I don't think I've ever said anyone should feel bad for Nylander. He's a good looking 22 year old athlete who's going to be a millionaire many times over and, hopefully, have a very nice life.

In fact, I think if you went back through this thread you wouldn't see me saying anything like:

- Nylander "should" get X amount of money
- Dubas is morally wrong for his tactics or bad to be self-motivated
- Nylander is "right" in any of his asks

I think what I've been saying could more accurately be condensed as:

- What a player is "worth" is a floating target, not entirely determined by the league's existing salary structure and people seem to only be using the comps that suit their arguments
- Everyone involved is self-interested, so I make no moral judgements.
- I think the Leafs are making a tactical mistake, which I think they shouldn't

I think the only reason that comes off as "pro-player" is because so many other people are so reflexively anti-player, which again is the sort of attitude we saw during the lockout that LK and I were referencing.

 

[sickbeast]

The thing is, at this point, it seems like addition by subtraction with Nylander.  You guys have seen the videos of Nylander refusing to block shots, yes?  That screams of a "me first" mentality.  Look at how well Auston Matthews is doing with Kapanen, a guy who plays hard, plays well defensively, and does all the little things.

Come on now. Addition by subtraction? He's 22 years old and has two straight 60 point seasons. That is very high-end production for a young player.

Not blocking shots screams to me "I don't want to get injured". It also tells me he's probably listening to the coaches. Here's an article with Rask asking his players to not try to stop the puck:

?Just stay in the lane and try not to play goalie,? Rask said of what he wants from the men in front of him. ?A lot of times when you try to stop it like a goalie, you open up holes and screen the goalie even more. Our guys do a pretty good job of focusing on the puck, staying in the lane, and not trying to do too much.?

So are you telling me that you think Auston Matthews would be playing even better with Nylander on his line instead of Kapanen?  I don't, quite honestly.  And have a look at the Tavares line's stats.  I wouldn't mess with that line either.  They are arguably playing even better than the Auston Matthews line, with way fewer goals against allowed.  So where does that leave Nylander?  On the third line?  Sure I guess he could be just the shot in the arm Kadri needs right now, but are you willing to pay $8 million per year for a third line winger that's going to get relatively limited ice time?  I would much rather allocate that money elsewhere, personally, even considering just how talented Nylander is.

 

[sickbeast]

Last season 5-on-5 stats:

Marner 0.23 blocks per game
Nylander 0.22 blocks per game
Kapanen 0.18 blocks per game

Kapanen's blocked 1 shot at 5-on-5 this season. I guess Nylander's blocked 0 though.

Does that take their ice time into consideration?

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Last season 5-on-5 stats:

Marner 0.23 blocks per game
Nylander 0.22 blocks per game
Kapanen 0.18 blocks per game

Kapanen's blocked 1 shot at 5-on-5 this season. I guess Nylander's blocked 0 though.

Does that take their ice time into consideration?

Here's what it looks like per 60 minutes:

Kapanen 1.12
Marner 1.04
Nylander 0.95

Technically puts Kapanen ahead of the other two, but that difference is really pretty miniscule. Those 3, along with Brown (0.21 per game, 1.08/60 minutes) were the 4 Leafs forwards who blocked shots the least. Even JVR and Bozak had slightly more both in terms of per game and per 60 minutes.

Although as Bullfrog said, this is likely at least in part a coaching strategy. The Leafs as a team ranked 27th in total blocked shots last season. Boston ranked 30th and Tampa ranked 26th... so there's some other pretty darn good teams who do so as well.

 

[Kin]

Interesting article from Chris Johnston at sportsnet that touches a bit on the Nylander situation(basically just talking about the way RFA compensation is calculated that we've gone over)

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/beyond-headlines-leafs-nylander-hasnt-received-offer-sheet/

More interestingly, I think, is his talking about Matthews. We all generally assume the Leafs will give Matthews what he wants but, as Johnston says, Matthews may not be like McDavid and Eichel and want long-term security. He may want a 5 year deal at his preferred cap hit and then look for a raise again ASAP.

 

[Bates]

Wouldn't five years take Matthews to UFA?  Might be hard to keep him after that.

Interesting article from Chris Johnston at sportsnet that touches a bit on the Nylander situation(basically just talking about the way RFA compensation is calculated that we've gone over)

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/beyond-headlines-leafs-nylander-hasnt-received-offer-sheet/

More interestingly, I think, is his talking about Matthews. We all generally assume the Leafs will give Matthews what he wants but, as Johnston says, Matthews may not be like McDavid and Eichel and want long-term security. He may want a 5 year deal at his preferred cap hit and then look for a raise again ASAP.

 

[Kin]

Wouldn't five years take Matthews to UFA?  Might be hard to keep him after that.

Right, which is why Matthews might prefer it.

 

[Zee]

Interesting article from Chris Johnston at sportsnet that touches a bit on the Nylander situation(basically just talking about the way RFA compensation is calculated that we've gone over)

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/beyond-headlines-leafs-nylander-hasnt-received-offer-sheet/

More interestingly, I think, is his talking about Matthews. We all generally assume the Leafs will give Matthews what he wants but, as Johnston says, Matthews may not be like McDavid and Eichel and want long-term security. He may want a 5 year deal at his preferred cap hit and then look for a raise again ASAP.

Elsewhere on the Nylander front, there have been rumblings out of Europe in the last 48 hours that Willy is thinking about Ufa ? not his UFA status, not yet, but the city located some 1,200 kilometres east of Moscow ? because KHL club Salavat Yulaev has expressed strong interest.

(Good luck unearthing a firm "yay" or "nay" on that potentially interesting tidbit from official sources.)

The only trouble is that Nylander can?t play a game in the KHL or anywhere else on the continent if he intends to return to the NHL this season, since that would require him to clear waivers immediately upon signing back in North America.

How the hell does this work?  I thought the Leafs would retain his rights as an RFA, but it seems there's a loophole here if he indeed signs in the KHL??  If he signs with the KHL he'd have to clear waivers to get back to the NHL this year?  Does that mean the Leafs would lose his rights? I'm confused what this is saying.

 

[Zee]

Wouldn't five years take Matthews to UFA?  Might be hard to keep him after that.

Right, which is why Matthews might prefer it.

This would suck so hard.  I love Matthews but him taking a 5 year deal would allow him to go wherever he felt like it after 5 years, just like Tavares did.  If Auston takes this route, I fear he'll want to take his talents to Arizona while still in his prime, he's already shown he's not afraid to buck the trend in how he approaches his career.  I hope he decides to stay a Leaf for life.

 

[Bates]

I don't know why but I've never thought Matthews would stay in Toronto his whole career. He just doesn't look comfortable to me but then again it could just be the way he is??  This year's Matthews might be a little too much for sleepy AZ hockey though?? 

Wouldn't five years take Matthews to UFA?  Might be hard to keep him after that.

Right, which is why Matthews might prefer it.

 

[Kin]

I don't know why but I've never thought Matthews would stay in Toronto his whole career. He just doesn't look comfortable to me but then again it could just be the way he is??  This year's Matthews might be a little too much for sleepy AZ hockey though?? 

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that this has anything to do with him wanting to play elsewhere, he may just want to be able to maximize his earnings.