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General Leafs Talk v2.0

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Potvin29 said:
Orr has been outscored by multiple goaltenders in his career.  He doesn't even deserve a 13th forward role, he really doesn't.

I agree with you on Orr, but I meant the enforcer role at minimum, rather than him personally. I thought it was a foregone conclusion that we weren't getting rid of Colton Orr, but not because we didn't want to.

At minimum, an enforcer should only be that of a 13th forward and only ever play if the other team has that type in the line-up.
 
BlueWhiteBlood said:
Potvin29 said:
Orr has been outscored by multiple goaltenders in his career.  He doesn't even deserve a 13th forward role, he really doesn't.

I agree with you on Orr, but I meant the enforcer role at minimum, rather than him personally. I thought it was a foregone conclusion that we weren't getting rid of Colton Orr, but not because we didn't want to.

At minimum, an enforcer should only be that of a 13th forward and only ever play if the other team has that type in the line-up.

Ahh gotcha.  But even that I don't agree with, since we've seen how many times this season that Orr/McLaren are the only enforcer dressed in a game and don't have a willing combatant?  If another team dresses one why not put them in that position where their enforcer is useless?
 
Potvin29 said:
Ahh gotcha.  But even that I don't agree with, since we've seen how many times this season that Orr/McLaren are the only enforcer dressed in a game and don't have a willing combatant?  If another team dresses one why not put them in that position where their enforcer is useless?

Exactly. I mean, outside the handful of teams that have enforcer types that are actually useful players, dressing a face puncher that doesn't have anyone who is willing to let him punch their face puts the team at a disadvantage.
 
Potvin29 said:
Ahh gotcha.  But even that I don't agree with, since we've seen how many times this season that Orr/McLaren are the only enforcer dressed in a game and don't have a willing combatant?  If another team dresses one why not put them in that position where their enforcer is useless?

You'd get no arguments from me, especially with this team. Phaneuf and Clarkson could drop the mitts if need be. Detroit employs this strategy don't they?
 
BlueWhiteBlood said:
At minimum, an enforcer should only be that of a 13th forward and only ever play if the other team has that type in the line-up.

But to me, that seems reactive, similarly to Randy's constant line-matching. Why not make that choice to not play an enforcer and make the other team's enforcer -- should they choose to play one -- obsolete? We know that rarely will a goon attack another team's star players. Sure, we saw it with Scott, but it's rare.

Why not choose to beat them with speed and skill, rather than blunt force and fists?

Last night, the Leafs out hit the 'Canes at a ratio of about 5:1. Sadly, they got out-scored at the same ratio. I'm not advocating against hitting (I love physical hockey) but I'm suggesting skill should be the priority everytime. And simply, there are numerous players in the Leafs' system that are more skilled than Orr and McLaren.

I guess what I'm saying simply is that I agree with Potvin29. I wouldn't even waste the 13th spot with an enforcer unless they brought some other skill to the table.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
You guys are too hard on our face punchers. Lupul's been alright this season.

LOL

I think he is one of the only players to show that type of emotion lately, where this teams play is actually driving him bonkers.
 
From Mirtle:

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Leafs are 30th in the league in ROW since November 1st, and 27th in the league in points.
 
Are we still thinking that Orr and McLaren are the reason that this team currently sucks?

I thought we got past that.
 
Bullfrog said:
I guess what I'm saying simply is that I agree with Potvin29. I wouldn't even waste the 13th spot with an enforcer unless they brought some other skill to the table.

I'm not against it at all. My favorite past Leafs are the ones that brought toughness and skill to the game. Wendel Clark is the hero in this household.

I'm just not against fighting in the sense that a lot are. I don't like staged fights, but response to cheap shots are tolerated I guess.

It would be great if "enforcers" went extinct all at once from the NHL.
 
Frank E said:
Are we still thinking that Orr and McLaren are the reason that this team currently sucks?

I thought we got past that.

No, it's just an obvious point of discussion that isn't particularly divisive anymore.
 
Frank E said:
Are we still thinking that Orr and McLaren are the reason that this team currently sucks?

I thought we got past that.

No, it's definitely moved on to Carlyle, but this is a related topic, because he's the one that keeps playing them, sometimes both in one game.
 
CarltonTheBear said:
Leafs are 30th in the league in ROW since November 1st, and 27th in the league in points.

It's actually kind of amusing looking at how many points the teams who are behind or recently passed the Leafs in the standings have gained in that span.
 
bustaheims said:
Frank E said:
Are we still thinking that Orr and McLaren are the reason that this team currently sucks?

I thought we got past that.

No, it's just an obvious point of discussion that isn't particularly divisive anymore.

Which, as we all know, are the points that are the most fun to talk about frequently.
 
Frank E said:
Are we still thinking that Orr and McLaren are the reason that this team currently sucks?

I thought we got past that.

It's part of his lineup construction and icing a bad bottom 6.  Who ever said it was the reason they aren't playing well?  It's just an example of the way he constructs his lineup.  And having a 4th line with one or two enforces who you can't play very much is a) not a common thing around the league, and b) has an effect on the rest of the lineup.

As Mirtle puts it:

In fact, if you look around the league, Carlyle is more reluctant to use his bottom 10 to 12 forwards than almost any other coach. Only the Vancouver Canucks? John Tortorella has had a shorter bench leaguewide, playing his fourth liners less than seven minutes a game ? or about a minute less than the Leafs generally offer theirs.

That?s had a ripple effect through the Toronto lineup, as every other unit is expected to play a lot. The top line of Kessel, Bozak and James van Riemsdyk, for example, averages nearly 21 minutes a game ? the second highest in the NHL behind only Vancouver?s top three forwards.

The Leafs second line, meanwhile, is the third-most used second unit in the NHL. And their third line ? usually made up of Nikolai Kulemin, Jay McClement and David Clarkson, a trio that has combined for nine goals all year ? is the most played third line in the league with an average of 16.5 minutes a night.

Toronto?s third line has actually played more than six other teams? second lines.

Injuries have contributed to the problem ? with Nazem Kadri and others filling in for players like Bozak ? but this is a trend that?s been evident for a couple years now. Having enforcers Colton Orr and Frazer McLaren as two of the team?s top 13 forwards is a significant part of the issue, especially when a minor injury like the one to Clarkson this week forces both onto the same bench-warming line.

...

But he wasn?t the guy the Leafs needed, not down two goals to a struggling Isles team playing its second night of a back-to-back. This was an avoidable issue, as McLaren ? who has averaged only 4 minutes, 29 seconds of ice time a game this season ? could have slipped through waivers to allow a more skilled body to fill in for Clarkson.

Instead, Holland was sandwiched between the two fighters on the bench, getting only one shift in the third period and none when his team was trailing by two and needing a goal against a team that uses all 12 of its forwards more than almost any other in the league.

...

McClement, meanwhile, played two of the final 14 minutes despite owning only one goal in 43 games this season.

It wasn?t the reason Toronto lost the game, but it was indicative of a trend where Carlyle has leaned hard on defensive veterans instead of more creative younger players, even when it?s made little sense to do so.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/mirtle-leafs-short-bench-in-for-test-during-busy-schedule/article16249640/
 
BlueWhiteBlood said:
No, it's definitely moved on to Carlyle, but this is a related topic, because he's the one that keeps playing them, sometimes both in one game.

Yesterday, though, one of the frequent points of comparison were the Flyers and how well they're playing despite having their own face punchers on the roster. It's pretty clear that's not the distinguishing factor here.
 
Nik the Trik said:
BlueWhiteBlood said:
No, it's definitely moved on to Carlyle, but this is a related topic, because he's the one that keeps playing them, sometimes both in one game.

Yesterday, though, one of the frequent points of comparison were the Flyers and how well they're playing despite having their own face punchers on the roster. It's pretty clear that's not the distinguishing factor here.

Agreed. Again, I think this is the inexperience coming to the forefront. There aren't enough veteran guys on this team to show the guys how you ride these waves out until the storm lifts. The teams appears to have succumbed to the pressure instead of trudging through it.
 
Nik the Trik said:
Yesterday, though, one of the frequent points of comparison were the Flyers and how well they're playing despite having their own face punchers on the roster. It's pretty clear that's not the distinguishing factor here.

No.

I wasn't part of said conversation, my point was just that Carlyle is the one making dumb decisions like it's the 70's again.
 
BlueWhiteBlood said:
I wasn't part of said conversation, my point was just that Carlyle is the one making dumb decisions like it's the 70's again.

If things were up to me I wouldn't dress goons. That said, I can recognize that other teams, teams that are playing well, are making the exact same "dumb decisions" and so I'm not sure how much that should play into an evaluation of Carlyle.
 
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