Horachek's impact on the team
- Thread starter ZBBM
- Start date
The Leafs have been pretty much a disgrace. I mean 1 win in 20 road games for a team with as much talent as they have. It's pretty much a lack of focus and effort.
I think Horachek was pretty much bang on in yesterday's interview when he responded to Kessel's comments: They are making a fortune and they just have to suck it up and play better. It sure doesn't seem like there is much appetite for that from the bulk of the team.
PS: Is it just me, or are they playing worse since Phaneuf returned?
I think Horachek was pretty much bang on in yesterday's interview when he responded to Kessel's comments: They are making a fortune and they just have to suck it up and play better. It sure doesn't seem like there is much appetite for that from the bulk of the team.
PS: Is it just me, or are they playing worse since Phaneuf returned?
bustaheims
Active member
slapshot said:
When the team you play for is struggling to score goals, you're going to end up a minus player regardless of your defensive play.
WhatIfGodWasALeaf
Active member
Chris said:
The fact that you can make this distinction, but spend all your time decrying Phil Kessel, I mean dude, take a step back and reassess things.
bustaheims
Active member
Al14 said:I'm not sure that is necessarily always true. However, I'm to lazy too do any research to back it up.
Well, there's a reason why most of the worst +/- players in the league play on bad teams - and bad teams generally have trouble scoring more goals than their opponents. That's really all +/- represents.
That's really not all it represents. Like all stats, you have to use it properly.
For instance, you can't really compare player A on Tampa Bay with player B on Toronto.
But, you can compare player A on Toronto with player B on Toronto. For example, Kessel is -32 and Holland is -1. Same terrible team. I would argue that this tells us that Holland is performing his role much more adequately than Kessel. Same for Komarov at +3, again on the same team.
Kessel and linemates are paid to be the primary scorers on the team and instead, they are being outscored by a wide margin.
Holland and Komarov are in supporting roles and are not expected to be scoring machines. I would expect their +/- to be closer to 0.
Now I expect someone to come along and claim that the goalies are playing better when Holland and Komarov are on the ice, or that it's just bad "puck luck" for Kessel and company. That's where you just have to watch the games, and you see that there has been a complete lack of effort by the top line.
Anyway...
For instance, you can't really compare player A on Tampa Bay with player B on Toronto.
But, you can compare player A on Toronto with player B on Toronto. For example, Kessel is -32 and Holland is -1. Same terrible team. I would argue that this tells us that Holland is performing his role much more adequately than Kessel. Same for Komarov at +3, again on the same team.
Kessel and linemates are paid to be the primary scorers on the team and instead, they are being outscored by a wide margin.
Holland and Komarov are in supporting roles and are not expected to be scoring machines. I would expect their +/- to be closer to 0.
Now I expect someone to come along and claim that the goalies are playing better when Holland and Komarov are on the ice, or that it's just bad "puck luck" for Kessel and company. That's where you just have to watch the games, and you see that there has been a complete lack of effort by the top line.
Anyway...
Chris said:
That's exactly the point. +\- is affected by a lot of things. And I agree that the top line is doing a poor job, but keep in mind that there are only a few players on this team the opposition has to worry about, which makes doing their job much harder. There is no secondary scoring. Can you imagine if Booth hadn't stepped up his game?
bustaheims
Active member
Chris said:
Same team, but getting very different ice time against very different calibre of competition - things that have a significant impact on how many goals you're on the ice for. Even for internal comparisons, +/- is an extremely flawed stat. It really says nothing about the individual player's abilities. You can do everything perfectly all season, but if your line mates suck, you can still end up with a significant minus. It really is just a representation of getting a lot of ice time on a bad team.
bustaheims said:
I realize it's an imperfect stat that we have to be very wary of and not hang too much on it.
Kessel now has a league worst -37 this season. He's been a minus player 8 out of his 9 NHL seasons. -81 with Leafs, -16 away from setting a franchise mark.
Having watched his erratic defensive conscience and lack of effort of late, I do have some difficulty accepting "oh well, that's just a flawed stat. He's on a bad team and it's everybody else's fault but Phil's."
After what I've seen of him on the ice, I'm sure as heck not buying that for this season.
Sure, linemates have a big effect, but they have a big effect on many of the stats that people love to quote these days.bustaheims said:
Besides, lets go with your premise about the caliber of competition. Your claim seems to be that Holland and Komarov are playing against "easier" competition. Of course! They are playing against "their level" just as Kessel, JVR and Bozak are generally playing against their level. The ultimate goal is to outscore the opposition. The top line is failing miserably and the stat shows that. It's not all Kessel's fault and I've never claimed that, but he's a big part of it. Holland and Komarov are holding their own against their level of competition. Again, plainly obvious to anyone watching the games. Plainly obvious tonight.