Champ Kind
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Zee said:
Well, yes, but I think Kadri proved somethng last year, right? If not, we wouldn't be having these conversations.
Kadri and Franson Contract Updates
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Well, yes, but I think Kadri proved somethng last year, right? If not, we wouldn't be having these conversations.
OldTimeHockey
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I think he proved that he belongs in the NHL. Coming into the season last year even that wasn't a for sure.
He also proved to have a knack for scoring.
Perhaps my opinion is swayed by the situation the Leafs put themselves into(cap) but I'm not sold on handing him the keys to the city.
He also proved to have a knack for scoring.
Perhaps my opinion is swayed by the situation the Leafs put themselves into(cap) but I'm not sold on handing him the keys to the city.
bustaheims
Active member
A Weekend at Bernier's said:
Until he's shown an ability to repeat the type of production we saw from him this past season, I have a hard time saying he's proven anything. While I expect he will be able to, he certainly wouldn't be the first player to have one really good season they could never reproduce.
Champ Kind
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bustaheims said:
But, Busta, there's a difference with Kadri and what Paul Fenton accomplished with the Jets before coming to Toronto, or Jason Blake's 40 goal season. There's an elite skill level here, which has been proven through years of junior and succesful AHL campaigns. This is not 44 points in 48 games that came out of left field. This is consistent with the development and trajectory of the player.
So while I get being cautious and I personally agree that a 5 year, $30M deal should not be in the cards, I think suggesting you need another year to know what kind of player you're getting is overtly skeptical.
mr grieves
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bustaheims said:
But it's a bit odd that the Leafs are confident enough in his being a top 6 C that they bought out Grabovski and set themselves up with him in that slot, and yet they're not sufficiently confident in those abilities to get him under contract longterm for about what a decent 2C would be paid.
Kin
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Bender said:
No, because that ignores the situation those teams were in. Couture was a good player, no doubt, but when he signed his two year extension it was coming off a season where he was San Jose's 3rd highest scoring center. Matt Duchene was too. Kadri wasn't just the Leafs' highest scoring centre, he was by a pretty considerable margin.
So the point, the way I read it, of the post you're responding to is specifically about Kadri and his place on the depth chart and the decision to cut loose a good player like Grabo. The Leafs need Kadri's offense a lot more than San Jose and Colorado needed the offense those two guys provided when they were signed and, up until these negotiations, the Leafs have acted like it.
bustaheims
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A Weekend at Bernier's said:
I'm not saying that. I'm saying the team needs another season to be willing to commit big money to the kid long-term. I don't expect him to flame out or anything like that, but, I also don't think he's really proven anything to the point where you can bank on him. To get the long-term deal he supposedly wants, he needs to show he can do it again, and, this time, over a full 82 game NHL season.
pnjunction
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The longer this goes on the more I think the solutions Nonis had planned to the cap corner the Leafs are in didn't materialize. But then why even bother to have Raymond show up if there's no money?
I just don't see how this happens (especially signing Raymond) without moving someone, my money's on Franson which I won't be happy with.
It could be that moving Franson has been the plan all along (or at least since giving up on moving Liles) and so it's just Kadri and Raymond to fit in the cap space we have left, which could work.
Nonis can't be thinking he's going to get all 3 done with the 5-6M that is left...
I just don't see how this happens (especially signing Raymond) without moving someone, my money's on Franson which I won't be happy with.
It could be that moving Franson has been the plan all along (or at least since giving up on moving Liles) and so it's just Kadri and Raymond to fit in the cap space we have left, which could work.
Nonis can't be thinking he's going to get all 3 done with the 5-6M that is left...
bustaheims
Active member
pnjunction said:
I don't know how many times I need to post this for it to sink in, but, until Franson is close to signing a contract (which, doesn't appear to be imminent in any way), Liles the player is more valuable to the Leafs than the cap space created by moving him. There's no evidence that they've given up on moving Liles or that there's no market for him, because, quite frankly, we really don't know if the Leafs have really put effort into moving him at this point - and, really, it wouldn't surprise me if they haven't. They could also very well have a couple potential deals in their back pocket that they'll only execute once they actually need to cap space for contracts that are actually about to be signed. Until there's an actual, real need for the cap space, as opposed to the theoretical/hopeful one that exists right now, moving Liles doesn't actually accomplish anything that benefits the team - and that's the biggest reason why he hasn't been moved.
pnjunction
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bustaheims said:
I think we not that far from saying the same thing, other than guessing whether Leafs management tried to shop Liles or not (IMO they should have but that's just my opinion).
Shipping Franson out is the back pocket deal I'm talking about. If this is the case that puts Franson in a limbo until something happens with Kadri. Right now I'd be surprised if a Franson deal gets done first, although it could be hardball with Kadri (here's the cap space that's left now take it or leave it).
bustaheims
Active member
pnjunction said:
My guess is they've had a number of discussions about both players, but, no team has offered up enough for Franson to get the Leafs to bite. I also wouldn't say shipping him out would be a back pocket deal, but, rather a result of negotiations going sour. If he's traded, it will be because the two sides couldn't agree on a contract and showed no signs of getting there in the foreseeable future.
As for Liles, as I've stated, there's really no reason to move him until Franson is close to signing, because all it does without that is serve to make the team weaker on the backend. Right now, he fills a need on the roster. If/when Franson signs, then we'll really be able to see if there is a market for him or if the Leafs need to go in another direction to create cap space (though, even then, whatever happens could simply be the result of getting an offer they can't refuse on another player).
93forever
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A Weekend at Bernier's said:
2 words for you: Jason Blake.
He was always a 20+ goal scorer, got lucky in the final year of his contract with the Isles and got a ridiculous deal with the Leafs. So before Kadri approaches Leafs management for a big contract, he should put up the big numbers first. Flip side is Leafs offer him a big contract, but Kadri doesn't produce, that makes Leafs management look bad and puts a bullseye on Kadri from Leaf fans.
mr grieves
New member
bustaheims said:
But that ship sailed when they bought out Grabovski. They already are banking on him to be a top 6 center next season. They're just arguing that he has no reason to think they think that and he has no reason to expect to be paid like that. But the depth chart isn't hard to read.
Strangelove
New member
93forever said:
Jason Blake was about 57 years old when he signed as a free agent. You might as well have said "two words for you: Bill Murray."
mr grieves said:
They have him slotted there but it still doesn't mean they can bank on him because Grabbo was bought out. Grabbo was bought out because he just couldn't do what Randy Carlyle wanted of him, they didn't get along and maybe even if he did bounce back that it wasn't worth it - you heard his tirade at the end of the year.
At the end of the day the Leafs have far more negotiating power than Kadri does at this point. Why wouldn't they want to pay him less than what he's asking if this helps the situation of the team overall? Why throw $5m at him and eat the rest of our cap space entirely? He's doing a good job but I don't know how anyone can say half a season is as good as a full season, especially when he started to go into a bit of a valley at the end of the season.
L
losveratos
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Strangelove said:
He was also 45th in points not 22nd like Kadri.
I'm sure most agree he's proven he can play and stick in the NHL. That's why everyone is pining for the guy to get signed. The real question is, which Kadri do we end up with? Is it the player that's almost a point per game... or is it something less. Maybe he will still have a few growing pains in the near future.
I just really don't like the talk of the 82 game season stuff. I can't see management caring about that at all. He played the full season that was offered to him and equally to every other player out there last season. What I believe they're thinking about is not, can he duplicate that "over a full 82 game season?" but instead as, will there be a sophomore slump? Will teams start to focus on him and bog him down? Will goalies learn his tricks? etc.
That's why long time consistent scorers are jumped on and early scorers get the bridge.
GhostofPotvin29
New member
Bender said:
Why wouldn't it have been worth it if he bounced back? The whole reason he said anything was the events that transpired - if he bounced back there would be nothing to be upset about. Did he ever do anything while still a Maple Leafs player? He spoke out after he was bought out, and he's hardly the first player to speak negatively of Randy Carlyle (*cough*Lupul*cough*).
losveratos said:
Not mentioned yet in this thread is that Kadri had the highest on-ice shooting percentage of any player in the NHL in like the last 6 years. (On-ice shooting percentage = percentage of your teammates shots that go in the net while you are on the ice.). So even if he plays just as well as last year, and has the same quality of opponents and the goalies dont figure out his tricks, we should expect his points per game to drop dramatically. He has to play substantially better or be historically lucky just to maintain a similar pace. Let's hope he kicks his level of play up a whole 'nother notch.
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