Phil Kessel

[Fanatic]

You don't get very far by saying "Kessel sucks because he isn't the number 1 goal scorer in the NHL" ... if that is what you are trying to say. 

From what I understand, Kessel is the 3rd leading scorer in the NHL after 70 games, playing now with a guy many teams might consider a border-line 3rd line center (Bozak) and another guy Connolly whom a number of fans suggest kicking down to the 4th line or all the way off the team, they despise his play so much.

I didn't say he sucks, but now that you mention it....... okay, he still does not suck.

But if you could start an imaginary team today and draft any players from the NHL, how many forwards would you have to pick before you got to Kessel? Hint - if you are building a team for the future be sure to choose Seguin before Kessel.

But it is really not Phil's fault that he is the cornerstone of the forwards anymore than it is Dion's fault that he is the captain.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

And I should assume that you find the difference between 10 goals in October and 6 in February to be negligible?

Did you really expect Kessel to score 10 goals every 11 games from start-to-finish? Fact is, Kessel has been in the top-3 in goals pretty much from the start of the season to right now. Full marks to Kessel for consistency there.

In the first three months of this year he scored 21 goals and since then he is now at 13. I think that is a noteworthy drop off.

Again, that's largely due to the 10 goals in 11 games he scored to start the season in October. Since then, he's goal totals per month have been 6-5-5-6. Consistency.

 

[princedpw]

You don't get very far by saying "Kessel sucks because he isn't the number 1 goal scorer in the NHL" ... if that is what you are trying to say. 

From what I understand, Kessel is the 3rd leading scorer in the NHL after 70 games, playing now with a guy many teams might consider a border-line 3rd line center (Bozak) and another guy Connolly whom a number of fans suggest kicking down to the 4th line or all the way off the team, they despise his play so much.

I didn't say he sucks, but now that you mention it....... okay, he still does not suck.

But if you could start an imaginary team today and draft any players from the NHL, how many forwards would you have to pick before you got to Kessel? Hint - if you are building a team for the future be sure to choose Seguin before Kessel.

But it is really not Phil's fault that he is the cornerstone of the forwards anymore than it is Dion's fault that he is the captain.

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying.  The point I would make, I suppose, is that there are a lot of things to complain about concerning the leafs these days.  Kessel not competing with Stamkos for being the #1 NHL goal scorer comes closer to the bottom of my list than the top.

 

[cw]

Stamkos scored # 50. Remember the first half of the season when Kessel was the scoring leader? Too bad for Phil the other guys just kept on scoring in the second half.

The "other guys" ?

Phil is 3rd in NHL goal scoring. Aside from Stamkos, the only other ahead of him is the bum who got picked 2nd overall and went on to win the Art Ross, Conn Smythe and Stanley Cup in 2009: Evgeni Malkin - who like most of the other top goal scorers have spent the balance of the last four seasons on better clubs than Kessel.

Are you saying the rest of the NHL belongs in the AHL or something?

Kessel's played less than three seasons for the Leafs. He's about to crack the top 50 in the 95 years of Leafs history in all time goal scoring. His goals per game as a Leafs is currently 12th. Adjusted for the different scoring eras, he's got to be top 10 all time in that stat as a Leafs goal scoring talent.

Here's a riddle for you: name the only five NHL players who have scored 30 or more goals (or are on pace to do so this season) each season since 2009-09 (four seasons in a row):
Alex Ovechkin
Ilya Kovalchuk
Jarome Iginla
Patrick Marleau
Phil Kessel

Here's the top 10 goal scorers since 2008-09
1 Alex Ovechkin 167
2 Steven Stamkos 167
3 Patrick Marleau 146
4 Ilya Kovalchuk 145
5 Corey Perry 143
6 Jarome Iginla 139
7 Jeff Carter 134
8 Phil Kessel 132
9 Rick Nash 129
10 Daniel Sedin 129

I'd say Phil has himself in pretty elite company because we're not looking at a one season wonder with any of them. Doing it consistently over that period of time is about a hard as it gets or as much proof as any goal scorer can possibly offer.

Fanatic, I know you like to rag on Kessel but of all the things to pick, I'd suggest that goal scoring should be on the bottom of your list.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Stamkos scored # 50. Remember the first half of the season when Kessel was the scoring leader? Too bad for Phil the other guys just kept on scoring in the second half.

I'm assuming you're ignoring the fact that February was Kessel's 2nd most productive month of the season (next to October) on purpose?

And I should assume that you find the difference between 10 goals in October and 6 in February to be negligible?

In the first three months of this year he scored 21 goals and since then he is now at 13. I think that is a noteworthy drop off.

Yeah, reminds me of in 1981-82 Gretzky scored 50 in 39 games but then only 42 in 41 games.  Not sure what gives with that.

 

[AvroArrow]

Stamkos scored # 50. Remember the first half of the season when Kessel was the scoring leader? Too bad for Phil the other guys just kept on scoring in the second half.

Wow, just wow...  :

 

[Corn Flake]

Stamkos scored # 50. Remember the first half of the season when Kessel was the scoring leader? Too bad for Phil the other guys just kept on scoring in the second half.

The "other guys" ?

Phil is 3rd in NHL goal scoring. Aside from Stamkos, the only other ahead of him is the bum who got picked 2nd overall and went on to win the Art Ross, Conn Smythe and Stanley Cup in 2009: Evgeni Malkin - who like most of the other top goal scorers have spent the balance of the last four seasons on better clubs than Kessel.

Are you saying the rest of the NHL belongs in the AHL or something?

Its absolutely astonishing to me how empty the glass half empty view of this team can get when things go south.  Never ceases to amaze me how bizarrely pessimistic the view can get. 

How, after all that has gone wrong this season, Kessel's individual production can't be seen as a positive just makes me shake my head.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

Stamkos scored # 50. Remember the first half of the season when Kessel was the scoring leader? Too bad for Phil the other guys just kept on scoring in the second half.

The "other guys" ?

Phil is 3rd in NHL goal scoring. Aside from Stamkos, the only other ahead of him is the bum who got picked 2nd overall and went on to win the Art Ross, Conn Smythe and Stanley Cup in 2009: Evgeni Malkin - who like most of the other top goal scorers have spent the balance of the last four seasons on better clubs than Kessel.

Are you saying the rest of the NHL belongs in the AHL or something?

Its absolutely astonishing to me how empty the glass half empty view of this team can get when things go south.  Never ceases to amaze me how bizarrely pessimistic the view can get. 

How, after all that has gone wrong this season, Kessel's individual production can't be seen as a positive just makes me shake my head.

I still like Kessel and I think guys like him are important to a team moving forward. Ottawa and San Jose took a big step backward when they both traded Heatley whose playing style is very similar.

 

[Fanatic]

How, after all that has gone wrong this season, Kessel's individual production can't be seen as a positive just makes me shake my head.

Just curious.... if you could, would you trade Kessel straight up for Seguin?

 

[ontariojames]

How, after all that has gone wrong this season, Kessel's individual production can't be seen as a positive just makes me shake my head.

Just curious.... if you could, would you trade Kessel straight up for Seguin?

Anyone who says no is being a very biased Leaf fan.

 

[bustaheims]

Anyone who says no is being a very biased Leaf fan.

Because everyone knows a 2nd year player having a good year is more valuable than a guy who is only a few years older and is currently in 5th in league scoring and 3rd in goals.

 

[pnjunction]

If offensive stats alone won hockey games we'd be closer to the 8th, where we are in goals for, than the 24th that we are in point %.  Not that the defensive problems are entirely Kessel's fault, but I'm just saying, and he does play his own role there (or rather doesn't).

 

[#1PilarFan]

If offensive stats alone won hockey games we'd be closer to the 8th, where we are in goals for, than the 24th that we are in point %.  Not that the defensive problems are entirely Kessel's fault, but I'm just saying, and he does play his own role there (or rather doesn't).

Sure, but adding Seguin onto this team isn't going to turn the Leafs into a defensive juggernaut. He's only one guy - just like Kessel.

 

[ontariojames]

Anyone who says no is being a very biased Leaf fan.

Because everyone knows a 2nd year player having a good year is more valuable than a guy who is only a few years older and is currently in 5th in league scoring and 3rd in goals.

Kessel is on pace for 84 points, considering Seguin is on pace for 70 in his second year and that he was 2nd overall pick projected to be a high end offensive player, it's extremely likely that Seguin will be atleast a ppg player in the future. Seguin is also much better defensively and is much more of a competitor.

 

[Chev-boyar-sky]

Anyone who says no is being a very biased Leaf fan.

Because everyone knows a 2nd year player having a good year is more valuable than a guy who is only a few years older and is currently in 5th in league scoring and 3rd in goals.

Kessel is on pace for 84 points, considering Seguin is on pace for 70 in his second year and that he was 2nd overall pick projected to be a high end offensive player, it's extremely likely that Seguin will be atleast a ppg player in the future. Seguin is also much better defensively and is much more of a competitor.

It's totally up for debate who will be the better player. You think it's with out a doubt Seguin, I'm less sure.

Kessel has proven he can produce in his first 6 seasons, with or without elite talent to play with. Seguin's 2nd season is looking a lot like Kessel's 3rd season (Kessel was even a +23 that year).

Seguin may never need to prove he can play with a 23/24/25 year old Tyler Bozak type player as his center and that's where we'll never be sure.

I mean to point out that playing on a Defensive (and not too shabby offensive) Stanley Cup winning Juggernaut is not the harder of the 2 situations.

Would I trade Kessel straight up for Seguin on the exact same contract? It'd be really close for me. Probably, but Seguin could hugely under-produce in a situation like Kessel has here in Toronto.

 

[ontariojames]

Anyone who says no is being a very biased Leaf fan.

Because everyone knows a 2nd year player having a good year is more valuable than a guy who is only a few years older and is currently in 5th in league scoring and 3rd in goals.

Kessel is on pace for 84 points, considering Seguin is on pace for 70 in his second year and that he was 2nd overall pick projected to be a high end offensive player, it's extremely likely that Seguin will be atleast a ppg player in the future. Seguin is also much better defensively and is much more of a competitor.

It's totally up for debate who will be the better player. You think it's with out a doubt Seguin, I'm less sure.

Kessel has proven he can produce in his first 6 seasons, with or without elite talent to play with. Seguin's 2nd season is looking a lot like Kessel's 3rd season (Kessel was even a +23 that year).

Seguin may never need to prove he can play with a 23/24/25 year old Tyler Bozak type player as his center and that's where we'll never be sure.

I mean to point out that playing on a Defensive (and not too shabby offensive) Stanley Cup winning Juggernaut is not the harder of the 2 situations.

Would I trade Kessel straight up for Seguin on the exact same contract? It'd be really close for me. Probably, but Seguin could hugely under-produce in a situation like Kessel has here in Toronto.

I think you are overstating how impressive Kessel's production was the last two seasons without good line mates. Kessel had 64 points last year and was on pace for 64 points the year before. If Seguin turns out to be a ppg player, which he most likely will be, I find it hard to imagine he wouldn't be able to muster up 64 points with equally bad line mates.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Anyone who says no is being a very biased Leaf fan.

Because everyone knows a 2nd year player having a good year is more valuable than a guy who is only a few years older and is currently in 5th in league scoring and 3rd in goals.

Kessel is on pace for 84 points, considering Seguin is on pace for 70 in his second year and that he was 2nd overall pick projected to be a high end offensive player, it's extremely likely that Seguin will be atleast a ppg player in the future. Seguin is also much better defensively and is much more of a competitor.

It's totally up for debate who will be the better player. You think it's with out a doubt Seguin, I'm less sure.

Kessel has proven he can produce in his first 6 seasons, with or without elite talent to play with. Seguin's 2nd season is looking a lot like Kessel's 3rd season (Kessel was even a +23 that year).

Seguin may never need to prove he can play with a 23/24/25 year old Tyler Bozak type player as his center and that's where we'll never be sure.

I mean to point out that playing on a Defensive (and not too shabby offensive) Stanley Cup winning Juggernaut is not the harder of the 2 situations.

Would I trade Kessel straight up for Seguin on the exact same contract? It'd be really close for me. Probably, but Seguin could hugely under-produce in a situation like Kessel has here in Toronto.

I think you are overstating how impressive Kessel's production was the last two seasons without good line mates. Kessel had 64 points last year and was on pace for 64 points the year before. If Seguin turns out to be a ppg player, which he most likely will be, I find it hard to imagine he wouldn't be able to muster up 64 points with equally bad line mates.

The overall point total isn't as impressive as the 30+ goals, which makes sense that inferior linemates should = fewer assists as they will likely cash in fewer chances than better linemates would.

 

[ontariojames]

Anyone who says no is being a very biased Leaf fan.

Because everyone knows a 2nd year player having a good year is more valuable than a guy who is only a few years older and is currently in 5th in league scoring and 3rd in goals.

Kessel is on pace for 84 points, considering Seguin is on pace for 70 in his second year and that he was 2nd overall pick projected to be a high end offensive player, it's extremely likely that Seguin will be atleast a ppg player in the future. Seguin is also much better defensively and is much more of a competitor.

It's totally up for debate who will be the better player. You think it's with out a doubt Seguin, I'm less sure.

Kessel has proven he can produce in his first 6 seasons, with or without elite talent to play with. Seguin's 2nd season is looking a lot like Kessel's 3rd season (Kessel was even a +23 that year).

Seguin may never need to prove he can play with a 23/24/25 year old Tyler Bozak type player as his center and that's where we'll never be sure.

I mean to point out that playing on a Defensive (and not too shabby offensive) Stanley Cup winning Juggernaut is not the harder of the 2 situations.

Would I trade Kessel straight up for Seguin on the exact same contract? It'd be really close for me. Probably, but Seguin could hugely under-produce in a situation like Kessel has here in Toronto.

I think you are overstating how impressive Kessel's production was the last two seasons without good line mates. Kessel had 64 points last year and was on pace for 64 points the year before. If Seguin turns out to be a ppg player, which he most likely will be, I find it hard to imagine he wouldn't be able to muster up 64 points with equally bad line mates.

The overall point total isn't as impressive as the 30+ goals, which makes sense that inferior linemates should = fewer assists as they will likely cash in fewer chances than better linemates would.

It's still the same point, mediocre linemates would equal less assists for anyone, and I'm quite confident in the future Seguin would be able to match Phil's 64 points with below par linemates.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

What evidence do you have that Seguin is much better defensively?  Sure, Kessel is poor defensively, no one is arguing that, but what is there to say Seguin is 'much better'?  Both have had seasons of high +/- on strong Boston teams, and Seguin has been shielded more than almost any other forward on Boston with a favourable offensive zone start %.

I don't deny that he is or could become better than Kessel defensively, but I'd like to hear why you say he is much better already.

 

[dappleganger]

Phil's job on defense is to cover a defenceman. How much of an impact are you expecting Phil to exert in the defensive zone? The last time a winger won the Selke was 2003 and only 4 times in the last 20 years has a winger won it.

My point is you don't need your winger to be a stalwart defensively. He has to hold his own which I think Phil does. Turnovers on the other hand, Phil has an issue there.

If you want to talk about poor defensive coverage, Luke Schenn is available. Phil Kessel, not much to talk about.