Phil Kessel

[ontariojames]

What evidence do you have that Seguin is much better defensively?  Sure, Kessel is poor defensively, no one is arguing that, but what is there to say Seguin is 'much better'?  Both have had seasons of high +/- on strong Boston teams, and Seguin has been shielded more than almost any other forward on Boston with a favourable offensive zone start %.

I don't deny that he is or could become better than Kessel defensively, but I'd like to hear why you say he is much better already.

Seguin's two way play was something that was highlighted about him during his draft year and this year I've been hearing things about how good of a two way player he's been. If scouts were talking about Seguin's two way play when he was a junior and people in hockey are talking about his two way play in the NHL then chances are he's actually a good two way player and much better defensively than Kessel.

 

[ontariojames]

Phil's job on defense is to cover a defenceman. How much of an impact are you expecting Phil to exert in the defensive zone? The last time a winger won the Selke was 2003 and only 4 times in the last 20 years has a winger won it.

My point is you don't need your winger to be a stalwart defensively. He has to hold his own which I think Phil does. Turnovers on the other hand, Phil has an issue there.

If you want to talk about poor defensive coverage, Luke Schenn is available. Phil Kessel, not much to talk about.

The fact that wingers do win the Selke from time to time shows you that they do have a considerable impact in the dzone, not as much as the centres, but still a considerable amount. And if his play in the dzone wasnt significant, why did Wilson talk about it as much as he did?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

What evidence do you have that Seguin is much better defensively?  Sure, Kessel is poor defensively, no one is arguing that, but what is there to say Seguin is 'much better'?  Both have had seasons of high +/- on strong Boston teams, and Seguin has been shielded more than almost any other forward on Boston with a favourable offensive zone start %.

I don't deny that he is or could become better than Kessel defensively, but I'd like to hear why you say he is much better already.

Seguin's two way play was something that was highlighted about him during his draft year and this year I've been hearing things about how good of a two way player he's been. If scouts were talking about Seguin's two way play when he was a junior and people in hockey are talking about his two way play in the NHL then chances are he's actually a good two way player and much better defensively than Kessel.

Hearing from who?

 

[ontariojames]

What evidence do you have that Seguin is much better defensively?  Sure, Kessel is poor defensively, no one is arguing that, but what is there to say Seguin is 'much better'?  Both have had seasons of high +/- on strong Boston teams, and Seguin has been shielded more than almost any other forward on Boston with a favourable offensive zone start %.

I don't deny that he is or could become better than Kessel defensively, but I'd like to hear why you say he is much better already.

Seguin's two way play was something that was highlighted about him during his draft year and this year I've been hearing things about how good of a two way player he's been. If scouts were talking about Seguin's two way play when he was a junior and people in hockey are talking about his two way play in the NHL then chances are he's actually a good two way player and much better defensively than Kessel.

Hearing from who?

Well, his coach for one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1lPk3MUeqE

 

[TML fan]

Wilson's issue with Kessel was leaving the zone too early or not coming back at all. Wilson made a point to highlight how much Kessel's defensive game improved this season. The other issue with Kessel that was pointed out is that he doesn't win battles to clear the puck or skates by the defender. Carlyle has mentioned that he wants to see more stops and starts from Kessel, rather than circles.

These are indeed issues with his defensive game but they are relatively minor ones. The puck doesn't always go to his side, and every Leaf winger has had problems clearing the zone this year. There isn't enough puck support...but anyways this isn't the place to discuss team issues. Kessel can be taught to play defense. He's still young and still growing as a player.

Regarding Kessel's physical game, there could be any number of reasons why he doesn't engage in physical activity often. One thought I've had on the issue (and I've mentioned it before) is that Kessel wants to stay healthy. Remember, he had major off season shoulder surgery 3 years ago. It may not be a nagging issue but it could be something in the back of his mind. Or maybe he's just a wuss? I don't know. Personally, I don't think that's the case, and frankly, I don't care either way. It's a minor issue as far as I'm concerned.

 

[dappleganger]

Phil's job on defense is to cover a defenceman. How much of an impact are you expecting Phil to exert in the defensive zone? The last time a winger won the Selke was 2003 and only 4 times in the last 20 years has a winger won it.

My point is you don't need your winger to be a stalwart defensively. He has to hold his own which I think Phil does. Turnovers on the other hand, Phil has an issue there.

If you want to talk about poor defensive coverage, Luke Schenn is available. Phil Kessel, not much to talk about.

The fact that wingers do win the Selke from time to time shows you that they do have a considerable impact in the dzone, not as much as the centres, but still a considerable amount. And if his play in the dzone wasnt significant, why did Wilson talk about it as much as he did?

Well, in fairness, 3 of those 4 wins by wingers for the Selke were the same player, Jere Lehtinen, who was pretty fantastic on the PK.

I think we can agree that out of the 6 players in the defensive zone the two wingers have the least amount of responsibility in the defensive zone.

Until Phil starts getting some serious time on the PK I don't think we can fully assess how good or bad Phil is in the defensive zone.

I agree with TML Fan's assessment. Phil's deficiencies are more getting it out of the zone. I've watched enough games this year to see Phil strip the puck from an opposing player on the back check to say he's not completely horrible defensively.
 

 

[Madferret]

Has PK hit 50 yet?

 

[ontariojames]

Wilson's issue with Kessel was leaving the zone too early or not coming back at all. Wilson made a point to highlight how much Kessel's defensive game improved this season. The other issue with Kessel that was pointed out is that he doesn't win battles to clear the puck or skates by the defender. Carlyle has mentioned that he wants to see more stops and starts from Kessel, rather than circles.

These are indeed issues with his defensive game but they are relatively minor ones. The puck doesn't always go to his side, and every Leaf winger has had problems clearing the zone this year. There isn't enough puck support...but anyways this isn't the place to discuss team issues. Kessel can be taught to play defense. He's still young and still growing as a player.

Regarding Kessel's physical game, there could be any number of reasons why he doesn't engage in physical activity often. One thought I've had on the issue (and I've mentioned it before) is that Kessel wants to stay healthy. Remember, he had major off season shoulder surgery 3 years ago. It may not be a nagging issue but it could be something in the back of his mind. Or maybe he's just a wuss? I don't know. Personally, I don't think that's the case, and frankly, I don't care either way. It's a minor issue as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, and then not too long after Wilson was back to talking about how Kessel needed to improve defensively. 

Phil has defensive issues, even if you don't  think they are big because he's a winger they are still there. Seguin is a good two way centre who will most likely put up as many points as Phil did this year in the future, therefore I think Seguin is the easy choice.

 

[Boston Leaf]

Has PK hit 50 yet?

points? Yes a while back

 

[gunnar36]

As much as I can't stand Damien Cox and usually disagree with him, I would have to say that I must side with him on this article:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/article/1146440--cox-toronto-maple-leafs-need-to-turn-page-on-phil-kessel

 

[Bender]

As much as I can't stand Damien Cox and usually disagree with him, I would have to say that I must side with him on this article:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/article/1146440--cox-toronto-maple-leafs-need-to-turn-page-on-phil-kessel

It depends on the assets coming back. Burke says he doesn't want to take a step back, but looking at this team you might just have to cut your losses and start fresh properly.

CW, why aren't you a hockey advisor?

 

[Corn Flake]

It's still the same point, mediocre linemates would equal less assists for anyone, and I'm quite confident in the future Seguin would be able to match Phil's 64 points with below par linemates.

So at best, he's a match then.

Could be.  But at least we know Kessel is a legit PPG player and could still very well get better too.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Phil has defensive issues, even if you don't  think they are big because he's a winger they are still there. Seguin is a good two way centre who will most likely put up as many points as Phil did this year in the future, therefore I think Seguin is the easy choice.

For the record, Seguin has pretty much played wing exclusively since entering the NHL.

 

[Tigger]

As much as I can't stand Damien Cox and usually disagree with him, I would have to say that I must side with him on this article:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/article/1146440--cox-toronto-maple-leafs-need-to-turn-page-on-phil-kessel

Y'know, you could probably get a boatload for him but he's currently tied for 3rd in goal scoring, 5th in points and he won't be 25 until October... sort of kiltered to use Downie as an example here.

I don't usually read the guy and nothing there changed my tune.

 

[Zee]

As much as I can't stand Damien Cox and usually disagree with him, I would have to say that I must side with him on this article:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/article/1146440--cox-toronto-maple-leafs-need-to-turn-page-on-phil-kessel

Y'know, you could probably get a boatload for him but he's currently tied for 3rd in goal scoring, 5th in points and he won't be 25 until October... sort of kiltered to use Downie as an example here.

I don't usually read the guy and nothing there changed my tune.

It's definitely an option if Burke wants to change team direction.  As you pointed out you can probably get a boatload for him, more so than they gave up when they traded for him at 22.

 

[Kessel_81]

How, after all that has gone wrong this season, Kessel's individual production can't be seen as a positive just makes me shake my head.

Just curious.... if you could, would you trade Kessel straight up for Seguin?

NO

 

[ontariojames]

It's still the same point, mediocre linemates would equal less assists for anyone, and I'm quite confident in the future Seguin would be able to match Phil's 64 points with below par linemates.

So at best, he's a match then.

Could be.  But at least we know Kessel is a legit PPG player and could still very well get better too.

Offensively, given that scenario. But, as I've pointed out, Seguin is significantly better all around.

 

[gunnar36]

It's definitely an option if Burke wants to change team direction.  As you pointed out you can probably get a boatload for him, more so than they gave up when they traded for him at 22.

There's no way that another GM is foolish enough to give up to high 1st's and a 2nd for him!  If any other team has scouted him they will realize that if you play the body on him and intimidate him early, he loses all effectiveness.

 

[bustaheims]

There's no way that another GM is foolish enough to give up to high 1st's and a 2nd for him!  If any other team has scouted him they will realize that if you play the body on him and intimidate him early, he loses all effectiveness.

If it was really that easy to throw him off his game, he wouldn't be in the middle of his 4th straight 30+ goal season.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

There's no way that another GM is foolish enough to give up to high 1st's and a 2nd for him!  If any other team has scouted him they will realize that if you play the body on him and intimidate him early, he loses all effectiveness.

If it was really that easy to throw him off his game, he wouldn't be in the middle of his 4th straight 30+ goal season.

Never let facts get in the way.