Randy Carlyle/Leaf Coach thread

[Kin]

To me, it's the fact that all 4 lines are making the exact same mistakes and have the exact same weaknesses that point to it being more of a coaching/system issue rather than a personnel issue. I won't deny that the team doesn't have the most defensively oriented group of skaters, but, they're certainly capable of being better than they have been if they're tasked with playing a system that works better to their strengths.

I'm not so sure that's true. I mean, I think a fair argument could be made that what Carlyle has them doing in terms of the system highlights rather than hides the deficiencies of the club, but I don't necessarily know that another system would mean much difference in terms of results, even if we might feel better about the shot totals.

Or, to put it another way, I probably would agree that the results of the last 30 minutes of the game are a reflection of what Carlyle has them doing but I just think that so are the first 30 minutes.

 

[Kin]

Well, Smith-Holland-Kulemin would have at least been comprised of 3 players who know what the offensive zone looks like.

But in a way that's my point. If the team's best option for the third line is a group that has...what, maybe 30 goals between them over the past three seasons? Slim pickin's either way. 

Maybe I mis-interpreted that then. But I think a top-6 with as much skill as ours shouldn't really have a problem creating offensive opportunities. Unless of course something/somebody was holding them back.

Yeah, I just struggle to reconcile that with what we saw though. I mean, I know it was one play but the first shift in OT where Bozak-Kessel gain the zone and Kessel stops, tries to throw it back to the blue line and hits the Penguin forward...I mean, you're absolutely right. Kessel should have generated something there, in the same way that Crosby did on a virtually identical play immediately afterwards...I just don't know how to attribute that to coaching.

 

[Kin]

Not being a very good team is one thing.

Yeah, but it's a pretty big thing. I take your point about being appearing to be outworked/outplayed but I really do genuinely wonder if that's an issue of optics rather than actual influence.

 

[TML fan]

To me, it's the fact that all 4 lines are making the exact same mistakes and have the exact same weaknesses that point to it being more of a coaching/system issue rather than a personnel issue. I won't deny that the team doesn't have the most defensively oriented group of skaters, but, they're certainly capable of being better than they have been if they're tasked with playing a system that works better to their strengths.

Or, to put it another way, I probably would agree that the results of the last 30 minutes of the game are a reflection of what Carlyle has them doing but I just think that so are the first 30 minutes.

In the first 30 minutes of the game they were forechecking aggressively and playing with the puck more. In the last 30 minutes they weren't. Do you really think the players are just doing that on their own?

 

[Kin]

In the first 30 minutes of the game they were forechecking aggressively and playing with the puck more. In the last 30 minutes they weren't. Do you really think the players are just doing that on their own?

No, I would just disagree with that assessment. The failure in the third period seemed to me to be as much one of execution as anything else. They didn't generate a shot during the power play and that wasn't because they weren't forechecking, it was because they were losing battles, making bad passes and making bad decisions.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

But in a way that's my point. If the team's best option for the third line is a group that has...what, maybe 30 goals between them over the past three seasons? Slim pickin's either way.

It's not ideal but like you even said it's still the best option available and instead Carlyle went with the worst option. At the very least he should have kept Holland on the line instead of Smithson. There was no reason to make that change.

As for the lack of offensive talent on that line, I would have called up Leivo and played him on the 2nd line so Raymond could play on the 3rd line. And if Carlyle wanted that he could have made it happen rather easily. 

Yeah, I just struggle to reconcile that with what we saw though. I mean, I know it was one play but the first shift in OT where Bozak-Kessel gain the zone and Kessel stops, tries to throw it back to the blue line and hits the Penguin forward...I mean, you're absolutely right. Kessel should have generated something there, in the same way that Crosby did on a virtually identical play immediately afterwards...I just don't know how to attribute that to coaching.

It's no secret that the Leafs score most of their goals off the rush. The general sense that I get is when the Leafs are playing their best they are carrying the puck into the zone with speed and numbers. In the 3rd period of this game (and a few others) it seems like Carlyle only has one forward entering the zone and the others are hanging a little more back. That forward either has to dump the puck in or skate it all the way in and hope to create a cycle if/when the other forwards arrive on the play. They basically go from playing to their strength to playing to their weakness. And that's a coaching decision.

 

[TML fan]

In the first 30 minutes of the game they were forechecking aggressively and playing with the puck more. In the last 30 minutes they weren't. Do you really think the players are just doing that on their own?

No, I would just disagree with that assessment. The failure in the third period seemed to me to be as much one of execution as anything else. They didn't generate a shot during the power play and that wasn't because they weren't forechecking, it was because they were losing battles, making bad passes and making bad decisions.

Why?

 

[gunnar36]

His decision not to dress his most mobile dman against a fleet footed team has me scratching my head....Gardiner certainly would have helped in the 3rd period tonight.

 

[moon111]

I think Carlyle is okay with players that are just okay in all categories.  But otherwise, he's willing to sacrifice a player's strengths to try and fix their weakness.  Players just end up becoming dogs.

 

[Kin]

It's not ideal but like you even said it's still the best option available and instead Carlyle went with the worst option. At the very least he should have kept Holland on the line instead of Smithson. There was no reason to make that change.

I don't think Holland was particularly effective tonight either but I don't disagree entirely and I certainly don't think Carlyle's lineup decisions are above question, I just feel like when we get into that sort of minutiae that we're talking about relatively minor influences on whether or not the team is going to win their games.

It's no secret that the Leafs score most of their goals off the rush. The general sense that I get is when the Leafs are playing their best they are carrying the puck into the zone with speed and numbers. In the 3rd period of this game (and a few others) it seems like Carlyle only has one forward entering the zone and the others are hanging a little more back.

Sure, but I think that's kind of a reflection on the sort of basic reality that is nobody can go full speed for 60 minutes. If the team doesn't have the personnel to have another option, a means to win in the third period where you can't be beating everyone with speed then I think a decline in performance as the game goes on is to be expected. Now, again, if you want to say that the issue is exacerbated by having a 4th line that can't eat minutes and keep legs fresher, I'm on board with that. I still don't think that's a huge influence compared to deficiencies in terms of personnel.

 

[Kin]

Why?

Well, again, I would lean towards that being an issue regarding personnel. Our best players, for the most part, are a little one-dimensional.

 

[TML fan]

Why?

Well, again, I would lean towards that being an issue regarding personnel. Our best players, for the most part, are a little one-dimensional.

So why not deploy them in a way that will suit their one dimension?

Also, that doesn't answer my question of why they were failing to execute in the 2nd half of the game and succeeding in the 1st half. Also, why does this happen on the regular, if that's in fact, what's happening?

 

[Kin]

So why not deploy them in a way that will suit their one dimension?

Because realistically that's not something you can always do. As teams adjust to the Leafs speed, as they identify their own ways to match up to suit their own strengths, if there isn't a second dimension to your better players that you can exploit they will decrease in effectiveness as the game wears on.

Like I said, during that PP in the third which was a very good opportunity to get something going it wasn't a question of tactics and it wasn't a question of who got put on the ice because the Leafs' best were out there, they just couldn't execute.

 

[TML fan]

So why not deploy them in a way that will suit their one dimension?

Because realistically that's not something you can always do. As teams adjust to the Leafs speed, as they identify their own ways to match up to suit their own strengths, if there isn't a second dimension to your better players that you can exploit they will decrease in effectiveness as the game wears on.

Like I said, during that PP in the third which was a very good opportunity to get something going it wasn't a question of tactics and it wasn't a question of who got put on the ice because the Leafs' best were out there, they just couldn't execute.

That's why the Leafs went out and got Clarkson. They identified that the Leafs needed another dimension to their game. The way the team is built, they want to play with the puck more. They just can't get it, and that's the flaw with their play without the puck. It doesn't force anything. They just wait for opportunities.

Why aren't they executing? How come they can sometimes do it and others they can't? How come it's usually in the 2nd half of the game?

 

[Kin]

That's why the Leafs went out and got Clarkson. They identified that the Leafs needed another dimension to their game.

I think it would be fair to say at this point that the Clarkson signing hasn't really materialized the way they would have hoped. That's personnel again however.

Why aren't they executing? How come they can sometimes do it and others they can't? How come it's usually in the 2nd half of the game?

In order, at least how I see it:

1. Because they're not very good and I think that's relatively true throughout the lineup.

2. Because they're not so bad that they're going to be completely ineffective. Kessel, JVR and the rest are good at some things and those things can result in opportunities that can be exploited.

3. Because team's will alter their game plan during the game to combat those opportunities and because so much of the Leafs' advantage seems to be based on speed which is something that will diminish as legs tire throughout a game.

 

[ZBBM]

i'm not a pile-on-Carlyle guy but one reason the speed game is diminished is that he ends us playing 2.5 lines most nights.  He keeps icing a 4th line that's 2/3ds useless and then staples a Holland to the bench for a period +, so that you end up giving McClement & Kulemin more icetime than they really deserve.  And you wear out the players you do play faster.

I'll say it again, this Leafs team has more talent than any in the last 10 years.  Nik is correct though in saying that they also have lots of flaws.  Still. if you are going to fire Carlyle, fire him because he isn't getting the players to play up to their talent.

 

[Andy007]

i'm not a pile-on-Carlyle guy but one reason the speed game is diminished is that he ends us playing 2.5 lines most nights.  He keeps icing a 4th line that's 2/3ds useless and then staples a Holland to the bench for a period +, so that you end up giving McClement & Kulemin more icetime than they really deserve.  And you wear out the players you do play faster.

I'll say it again, this Leafs team has more talent than any in the last 10 years.  Nik is correct though in saying that they also have lots of flaws.  Still. if you are going to fire Carlyle, fire him because he isn't getting the players to play up to their talent.

The offense has been scoring. The goaltending has been outstanding. What talent level isn't being reached? The team can't make a simple breakout 95% of the time against every single NHL team. That isn't a talent problem.

 

[Stickytape]

This isn't a rhetorical or sarcastic question because maybe I just don't know:  If it's the entire team's fault for being this awful, what exactly is it that a coach does?  What effect do they have on the team?  What does it look like when it really is the coach's fault?

 

[Kin]

I'll say it again, this Leafs team has more talent than any in the last 10 years.

You know what they have in Dwarf Pubs? Low bars.

 

[ZBBM]

i'm not a pile-on-Carlyle guy but one reason the speed game is diminished is that he ends us playing 2.5 lines most nights.  He keeps icing a 4th line that's 2/3ds useless and then staples a Holland to the bench for a period +, so that you end up giving McClement & Kulemin more icetime than they really deserve.  And you wear out the players you do play faster.

I'll say it again, this Leafs team has more talent than any in the last 10 years.  Nik is correct though in saying that they also have lots of flaws.  Still. if you are going to fire Carlyle, fire him because he isn't getting the players to play up to their talent.

The offense has been scoring. The goaltending has been outstanding. What talent level isn't being reached? The team can't make a simple breakout 95% of the time against every single NHL team. That isn't a talent problem.

The offense hasn't been scoring, and certainly not 5 on 5.