The 2014 Toronto Blue Jays Thread

[Andy007]

The return for Lind is RHP Marco Estrada - a #6 starter/swingman type.

A below average NL pitcher.  Lind wasn't going to have a lot of value, but a below average 31 year old pitcher is kind of a disappointing swap to me.

Could this be strictly a salary dump?

I think it's less of a salary dump and more just a recognition that they were moving on from him. Even having the sort of year he just did he's a 2 win player if he's not in the line-up everyday and it requires the team to carry a bench player just to DH against Lefties. It really shouldn't be hard to replace Lind and, well, the guy was a part-time player. You're not going to get a ton for him.

And I think they should be glad they got anything for him. If they couldn't get an offer, they were moving on from him regardless.

Why should they be glad to get "anything?" The guy has had a huge OBP the last two years, destroys RH pitching (which, of course, is handedness of the majority of pitchers) and has a modest 7.5 million price tag with an 8 million club option next year. Carrying him may take up an extra roster spot but guys like Mayberry and Valencia smoke lefties so it's not really that big a deal. He definitely has some value. And personally I'm not adverse to this trade if the Jays acquire a full time DH but from the sound of AA's press conference this was basically a salary dump meaning Smoak + scrubs are probably going to be the replacement.

Because in a couple months they were getting squat. You can question whether or not they needed Lind, but that's not what I was commenting on. They decided they wanted to move on without him. Whether they have a grand plan or just wanted to save 7.5 million is beyond me. The second they decided to move on, they were essentially willing to accept the fact they may get nothing for the guy in return.

They were getting squat only if they chose to decline his option. You said they were lucky to get anything for him, which just isn't true.

 

[Andy007]

Lind did make some very disparaging remarks about AA to the media. My dad met him and said that he is not a nice person.

I am curious at to exactly what his disparaging remarks were. Do you have a link?

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Dalton Pompey sounds like he's impressing in the AFL.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

The return for Lind is RHP Marco Estrada - a #6 starter/swingman type.

A below average NL pitcher.  Lind wasn't going to have a lot of value, but a below average 31 year old pitcher is kind of a disappointing swap to me.

Could this be strictly a salary dump?

I think it's less of a salary dump and more just a recognition that they were moving on from him. Even having the sort of year he just did he's a 2 win player if he's not in the line-up everyday and it requires the team to carry a bench player just to DH against Lefties. It really shouldn't be hard to replace Lind and, well, the guy was a part-time player. You're not going to get a ton for him.

And I think they should be glad they got anything for him. If they couldn't get an offer, they were moving on from him regardless.

Why should they be glad to get "anything?" The guy has had a huge OBP the last two years, destroys RH pitching (which, of course, is handedness of the majority of pitchers) and has a modest 7.5 million price tag with an 8 million club option next year. Carrying him may take up an extra roster spot but guys like Mayberry and Valencia smoke lefties so it's not really that big a deal. He definitely has some value. And personally I'm not adverse to this trade if the Jays acquire a full time DH but from the sound of AA's press conference this was basically a salary dump meaning Smoak + scrubs are probably going to be the replacement.

Here's an article touching on some of the possible motivations for both sides: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/adam-lind-and-baseballs-worst-position/

 

[bustaheims]

They were getting squat only if they chose to decline his option. You said they were lucky to get anything for him, which just isn't true.

Which the team has admitted they were going to do if they couldn't find a trade.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

They were getting squat only if they chose to decline his option. You said they were lucky to get anything for him, which just isn't true.

Which the team has admitted they were going to do if they couldn't find a trade.

Which in turn = Squat or a borderline starter.

 

[Kin]

Which in turn = Squat or a borderline starter.

Well, in fairness, declining the option on Lind is still a choice they'd be making so while I think the trade is defensible, I don't think "if we hadn't made the trade we'd have done something even worse" is much of a defense.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

Which in turn = Squat or a borderline starter.

Well, in fairness, declining the option on Lind is still a choice they'd be making so while I think the trade is defensible, I don't think "if we hadn't made the trade we'd have done something even worse" is much of a defense.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at Nik.

The team stated that they were walking away from Lind. The fact they got something for him is a good thing.

If I get $25 in a yard sale for an item I decided I'm throwing away if it sells or not, is that $25 not better than the $0 I would of gotten at the city landfill?

 

[bustaheims]

If I get $25 in a yard sale for an item I decided I'm throwing away if it sells or not, is that $25 not better than the $0 I would of gotten at the city landfill?

Well, the problem with that analogy is that the Jays may still end up not having received anything from this deal outside of not having to pay the buyout on Lind's options. Estrada is still a non-tender candidate that could very well never see any time in a Jays uniform.

 

[Andy007]

They were getting squat only if they chose to decline his option. You said they were lucky to get anything for him, which just isn't true.

Which the team has admitted they were going to do if they couldn't find a trade.

Yea and that is a brutal-organization/ownership/GM decision not an Adam Lind is useless decision.

 

[Kin]

If I get $25 in a yard sale for an item I decided I'm throwing away if it sells or not, is that $25 not better than the $0 I would of gotten at the city landfill?

Sure. But the reality is that Lind has value. Receiving something for him, even something like a bullpen arm who you might not tender, isn't a question of luck. Choosing to walk away from him was not a course set in stone.

Right? In your analogy the 25 dollars is better than throwing it away but if the argument is that you could have gotten 30 or 40 dollars for it at any pawn shop than saying "Eh, I just would have thrown it away anyway" isn't exactly a declaration of your sound financial judgment.

 

[Joe S.]

They were getting squat only if they chose to decline his option. You said they were lucky to get anything for him, which just isn't true.

AA was on the FAN this morning - and he pretty much said as much. He said there was little interest in Lind when they let it be known he was available.

 

[bustaheims]

Yea and that is a brutal-organization/ownership/GM decision not an Adam Lind is useless decision.

I think the lack of serious interest around the league, the level of return the Jays received for him and the fact they were willing to simply walk away from him lends much more credence to the "Lind doesn't have much value" camp than any other POV.

Between his back issues, the serious drop off in his power numbers, his abnormally high BABIP this past season, poor defence, and the fact that he seriously struggles against lefties, he's just not a guy who is going to have a lot of interest around the league.

 

[Andy007]

They were getting squat only if they chose to decline his option. You said they were lucky to get anything for him, which just isn't true.

AA was on the FAN this morning - and he pretty much said as much. He said there was little interest in Lind when they let it be known he was available.

I'm sorry but I'm just not sure that I am willing to take anything at face value when it comes to AA or anyone, really, in the Jays organization.

Maybe the lack of offers was more indicative of the calibre of GM that we have and not necessarily an indication of Lind's worth (or lack thereof). Maybe most teams know how strapped the Jays seem to be financially and figure that Lind was a good buyout candidate. There was an article a while back that suggested that most GM's were so tired of AA's scouting questions and lack of action that they refuse to deal with him.

 

[bustaheims]

Maybe the lack of offers was more indicative of the calibre of GM that we have and not necessarily an indication of Lind's worth (or lack thereof). Maybe most teams know how strapped the Jays seem to be financially and figure that Lind was a good buyout candidate. There was an article a while back that suggested that most GM's were so tired of AA's scouting questions and lack of action that they refuse to deal with him.

If a team has real interest in acquiring a player, they're not going to hope his current team decides to pass on his option and try to convince that player they're a better option than every other team that may be bidding for their services - unless they feel that player is of low value or there are a number of equivalent players out there - to the point where they don't really care all that much about which one ends up on their roster. Whatever opposing GMs feel about AA  or how cash strapped they feel the Jays might be goes right out the window if the Jays are putting a player they legitimately want on the market. If teams wanted Lind, they would have approached the Jays once they knew the Jays were looking to trade him.

The fact that they didn't doesn't say anything about AA, but it does say a lot about Lind's value. Teams didn't feel he was worth giving up an asset for or targeting ahead of other options out there. He was simply not a priority acquisition for anyone other than the Brewers - and, even they really likely only targeted him because they knew how little they'd have to sacrifice to get a deal done.

 

[Kin]

Maybe the lack of offers was more indicative of the calibre of GM that we have and not necessarily an indication of Lind's worth (or lack thereof).  Maybe most teams know how strapped the Jays seem to be financially and figure that Lind was a good buyout candidate.

Well, ok, but at the end of the day a 2 win part-time player is a 2 win part-time player. Nobody is going to lose their mind to acquire him regardless of contract situation.

I mean, isn't it a little inherently contradictory to think he's a player teams would really want while at the same time thinking they'd leave acquiring him to the sort of chance inherent in both hoping he got bought out and then hoping he'd sign as a FA once he got bought out?

 

[OldTimeHockey]

If I get $25 in a yard sale for an item I decided I'm throwing away if it sells or not, is that $25 not better than the $0 I would of gotten at the city landfill?

Well, the problem with that analogy is that the Jays may still end up not having received anything from this deal outside of not having to pay the buyout on Lind's options. Estrada is still a non-tender candidate that could very well never see any time in a Jays uniform.

Okay, so the guy paid me with a gift card that may or may not be expired

 

[bustaheims]

To the surprise of no one, Melky has declined his qualifying offer and will test the market. If he signs elsewhere, the Jays will receive a pick between the 1st and 2nd round as compensation, and the team that signs him will forfeit a pick in the first 2 rounds.

 

[Kin]

Kind of an interesting chart from MLBTraderumours about the salary commitments around the league for next year as well as the projected arbitration numbers. The Jays are already committed to more than a 100 million dollars and around 20 million is their projected arbitration number. Something to keep in mind when talking about free agents/trades:

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/11/2015-payroll-obligations-by-team.html

 

[Deebo]

Blue Jays acquire second base prospect Devon Travis from Tigers for Anthony Gose.