The easy part is done. Next step: Core overhaul

[freer]

By no means an exhaustive list, I think our salary cap situation means we need to make do with what we have and try to eke out as much of the potential as possible through a development focus (playing the right way). If ego is getting in the way of that, then we move on.

Core 2.015: Kadri, van Riemsdyk, Rielly, Bernier

Try to keep: Komarov, Santorelli, Winnik, Franson
Try to grow: Kessel (mentally/emotionally), Gardiner (mentally), Holland (more playing time with skill), Panik (more playing time)

Trade for youth: Lupul, Robidas, Polak, Phaneuf, Bozak
Toss regardless of return: Clarkson, Nonis

Yeah I guess if you want to wait to make the playoffs for another 5 years, you lose all the experience on the team. I for one dont want to wait that long.

 

[bustaheims]

Yeah I guess if you want to wait to make the playoffs for another 5 years, you lose all the experience on the team. I for one dont want to wait that long.

Most of us don't just want a playoff team. We want a championship calibre team, and getting there is going to require some significant moves - and that means moving out veterans. Having experience doesn't make a team good, and not having experience doesn't mean they can't have success. You don't keep broken, flawed or poor players around because they're experienced, unless you're happy to settle for mediocrity.

 

[herman]

Clarkson is best used as a shift disturber on the 4th line. Forechecker #1, knocking pucks loose, or falling on defenders to take them out of the play. He has seemingly boundless energy and crazy eyes. Let'em rip.

snip

Yeah I guess if you want to wait to make the playoffs for another 5 years, you lose all the experience on the team. I for one dont want to wait that long.

I want the Leafs to succeed in the long term, not a flash in the playoff pan. So that means developing players from the time they are drafted to the time they retire, playing a successful style and game plan (which has yet to be established), at every level (junior, AHL, NHL). That means holding off on big-time UFA acquisitions for $$$$/YYYY and developing from within, using the UFA market only to fill holes (Santorelli/Winnik/Booth). Sorry if you would prefer an expedited approach (that could still fall short and cripple the organization for another 5+ years having spent all the young, cost-controllable talent on expensive over-the-hill stars).

All the experience on the team at the moment is in winning the wrong way and losing horrifically to the worst teams.

 

[freer]

Clarkson is best used as a shift disturber on the 4th line. Forechecker #1, knocking pucks loose, or falling on defenders to take them out of the play. He has seemingly boundless energy and crazy eyes. Let'em rip.

snip

Yeah I guess if you want to wait to make the playoffs for another 5 years, you lose all the experience on the team. I for one dont want to wait that long.

I want the Leafs to succeed in the long term, not a flash in the playoff pan. So that means developing players from the time they are drafted to the time they retire, playing a successful style and game plan (which has yet to be established), at every level (junior, AHL, NHL). That means holding off on big-time UFA acquisitions for $$$$/YYYY and developing from within, using the UFA market only to fill holes (Santorelli/Winnik/Booth). Sorry if you would prefer an expedited approach (that could still fall short and cripple the organization for another 5+ years having spent all the young, cost-controllable talent on expensive over-the-hill stars).

All the experience on the team at the moment is in winning the wrong way and losing horrifically to the worst teams.

All the experience on this team was coached awfully for the past 2 and half years. The system did not work here, or in ANA. It is going to take 10 games to see if it is fixable. I will make my judgement later.

 

[Kin]

Uh, yeah, he is.  Vets don't let guys like Feschuk get under their skin and goad them into name-calling.

I don't know if maturity is the right axis here but something that sort of seems in the air is that there's maybe a degree of complacency with him? Like in the podcast I linked to yesterday there were references to teammates of his sort of resentfully referencing his eating/work out habits or telling stories of how, after bad first periods, he'd come into the room and just announce that he didn't think he'd be able to score that night.

So more and more I'm kind of getting a guy who is a prodigious talent and certainly capable of producing a ton of points but also someone who feels that he's good enough as is and who doesn't need to make the hard decisions to shape himself towards being even better than he is. While he can be excused for thinking that he's absolutely good enough to keep his job and justify his paycheck, it does lend a lot of weight to the argument that he's a complimentary player.

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

both ways are a crapshoot.  like if you want to blow up the team then you're still basically saying..man i hope we get lucky.  Because really let's look at how this has gone.  We've had 3.5? general managers since the Quinn era.  JFJ...fletcher...Burke...Nonis those men put us in the situation that we're in now.  These guys thought they knew how to build a team and have by the fact that we still aren't any closer to having a cup..they were wrong.

So now even if we go out and get another GM and tell him to build us a team with all the picks we'd presumably get from getting rid of all the vets you're still counting on this GM to be more gifted at putting together a team then the guys we've had.  Now i'm not saying there aren't better GMs out there but the guys picking the new ones have a lot of overlap with the guys who picked the old ones. 

So if you think the organization is full of idiots and only makes bad decisions ..i've got news for you..they're still going to be that organization....

 

[herman]

I don't know if maturity is the right axis here but something that sort of seems in the air is that there's maybe a degree of complacency with him? Like in the podcast I linked to yesterday there were references to teammates of his sort of resentfully referencing his eating/work out habits or telling stories of how, after bad first periods, he'd come into the room and just announce that he didn't think he'd be able to score that night.

So more and more I'm kind of getting a guy who is a prodigious talent and certainly capable of producing a ton of points but also someone who feels that he's good enough as is and who doesn't need to make the hard decisions to shape himself towards being even better than he is. While he can be excused for thinking that he's absolutely good enough to keep his job and justify his paycheck, it does lend a lot of weight to the argument that he's a complimentary player.

That's the sense I'm getting as well. Kessel is Sherlock: brilliant, solves a lot of your key problems, but can be a PITA to manage and wield consistently. Kessel needs a good Dr. Watson to interface with the rest of the world (Bozak?). I think the right coaching influence can turn him around. A crazy scary medical event could also do the trick (e.g. Roberts, Lupul), but I think he already overcame one of those.

 

[ZBBM]

I don't think Kessel is going to "grow" in maturity, BTW.

He's not immature, jeebus.

Uh, yeah, he is.  Vets don't let guys like Feschuk get under their skin and goad them into name-calling.

Correct.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q4Ig-N5p60[/youtube]

Exactly.  And I'm sure there's tons more throughout recent NHL history.  I just think it's ridiculous to take interactions with media as a sign of maturity or lack thereof.  It's nothing but occasional interesting interactions in a sea of bland platitudes and cliches.  Even Ron Wilson blew up at Howard Berger at one point - is he immature at 50-60 years old?

Disliking a reporter who has publicly called you fat, lazy and has repeatedly attacked you in the media  and saying it to his face isn't immaturity.

Sure it is.  If Kessel were mature, he'd accept and publicly acknowledge that he IS fat, lazy, and immature.

 

[Kin]

So now even if we go out and get another GM and tell him to build us a team with all the picks we'd presumably get from getting rid of all the vets you're still counting on this GM to be more gifted at putting together a team then the guys we've had.  Now i'm not saying there aren't better GMs out there but the guys picking the new ones have a lot of overlap with the guys who picked the old ones. 

No, because the issue is how you build the team as opposed to it being a matter of being "gifted". The guys you're talking about thought they could build a team without a full overhaul and patience and all is being advocated here is that you not ask a new GM to do that. The problem with JFJ is that he was clearly looking to do the "compete while building" thing that basically never works. People who want to paint him as some sort of idiot clown have to contend with his track record at the draft which certainly isn't noticeably bad given where he was picking. All you're banking on by asking a new GM to give it a try is that he won't be forced into rushing the process the way every single GM we've had has done.

You know, in craps, there are different bets. 7 comes up more than 11. All people are really saying is maybe, once, we should try betting on 7 instead.

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

So now even if we go out and get another GM and tell him to build us a team with all the picks we'd presumably get from getting rid of all the vets you're still counting on this GM to be more gifted at putting together a team then the guys we've had.  Now i'm not saying there aren't better GMs out there but the guys picking the new ones have a lot of overlap with the guys who picked the old ones. 

No, because the issue is how you build the team as opposed to it being a matter of being "gifted". The guys you're talking about thought they could build a team without a full overhaul and patience and all is being advocated here is that you not ask a new GM to do that. The problem with JFJ is that he was clearly looking to do the "compete while building" thing that basically never works. People who want to paint him as some sort of idiot clown have to contend with his track record at the draft which certainly isn't noticeably bad given where he was picking. All you're banking on by asking a new GM to give it a try is that he won't be forced into rushing the process the way every single GM we've had has done.

You know, in craps, there are different bets. 7 comes up more than 11. All people are really saying is maybe, once, we should try betting on 7 instead.

I don't have the quote so take it for what it's worth but I remember Burke saying something along the lines in his justification for the Kessel trade that if the leafs weren't competitive within 4 years he'd be out of a job.  Again I'm paraphrasing here but I think I've carried on the sentiment.  This was from a guy who probably had a lot more rope to hang himself then say JFJ...

I don't see why those realities won't be the same.  People lose their stomach fairly quickly for this kind of thing and while I believe that you can do enough to convince people to patient right now especially if you could somehow engineer a collapse so complete as to have a shot at mcdavid but people are going to turn on you again fairly quickly in a few years.  If burke didn't feel he was going to be insulated from that kind of backlash ..who would feel comfortable enough to take the job knowing that they're going to get so far before the rug is pulled out from under them? 

 

[LuncheonMeat]

Mirtle's suggestion:

Dump players moving out of their prime such as St?phane Robidas, Joffrey Lupul, Tyler Bozak and Roman Polak, even for bad contracts that expire sooner (if necessary).

Eat half the salary on disastrous deals such as David Clarkson?s simply to get them off the books.

Explore what you can get for Dion Phaneuf and Phil Kessel, preferably younger players who will a) be cheaper and b) potentially mature during the time period when the Leafs can realistically be contenders.

And start doing it between now and the March 2 trade deadline, which is a mere 54 days away.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/hockey/leafs-beat/mirtle-how-to-fix-the-maple-leafs-a-de-build-or-a-teardown/article22328317/

Definitely agree with the first two parts. All of those players listed need to get off the books. The Leafs cap is a mess right now considering the state of the team. I could get behind moves to trade Phaneuf and/or Kessel as long as the return coming back is high enough (in the case of Kessel I basically want somebody who should be around Kessel's level but just in 2-3 years, a return that probably wouldn't be likely).

I would also like to see what Hunter's influence could do with a suitcase full of draft picks.

 

[Kin]

I don't see why those realities won't be the same.  People lose their stomach fairly quickly for this kind of thing and while I believe that you can do enough to convince people to patient right now especially if you could somehow engineer a collapse so complete as to have a shot at mcdavid but people are going to turn on you again fairly quickly in a few years.  If burke didn't feel he was going to be insulated from that kind of backlash ..who would feel comfortable enough to take the job knowing that they're going to get so far before the rug is pulled out from under them?

Well, to answer the first part where you ask why it would be different...it's a new board. The people who owned the majority of the team during the JFJ/Fletcher/Burke years don't own the team anymore. The people who would have put pressure on Burke, unless it was specifically Larry Tanenbaum as a minority owner, aren't there. And unlike the previous group of owners, the current owners aren't dependent on the hockey team itself being a big earner to justify their ownership. The Leafs revenues are a drop in an ocean for Rogers and Bell Media. Their fundamental interest in the Leafs is as programming. So unless you're making the argument that people will actually stop watching the Leafs because they're lousy there's no reason why things wouldn't change. If you are making that argument, then the last 10 years prove you wrong.

But more than that, if I can guess, that the "backlash" you're talking about will come from fans in which case I think you're wrong on two fronts. One, you're saying that in a thread with fans who are saying they can take a patient rebuild and two, you're drastically overestimating the impact loudmouth fans have on what the team does. The team is not run by the people who call into radio shows.

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

I don't see why those realities won't be the same.  People lose their stomach fairly quickly for this kind of thing and while I believe that you can do enough to convince people to patient right now especially if you could somehow engineer a collapse so complete as to have a shot at mcdavid but people are going to turn on you again fairly quickly in a few years.  If burke didn't feel he was going to be insulated from that kind of backlash ..who would feel comfortable enough to take the job knowing that they're going to get so far before the rug is pulled out from under them?

Well, to answer the first part where you ask why it would be different...it's a new board. The people who owned the majority of the team during the JFJ/Fletcher/Burke years don't own the team anymore. The people who would have put pressure on Burke, unless it was specifically Larry Tanenbaum as a minority owner, aren't there. And unlike the previous group of owners, the current owners aren't dependent on the hockey team itself being a big earner to justify their ownership. The Leafs revenues are a drop in an ocean for Rogers and Bell Media. Their fundamental interest in the Leafs is as programming. So unless you're making the argument that people will actually stop watching the Leafs because they're lousy there's no reason why things wouldn't change. If you are making that argument, then the last 10 years prove you wrong.

But more than that, if I can guess, that the "backlash" you're talking about will come from fans in which case I think you're wrong on two fronts. One, you're saying that in a thread with fans who are saying they can take a patient rebuild and two, you're drastically overestimating the impact loudmouth fans have on what the team does. The team is not run by the people who call into radio shows.

Well if your argument is that people watch the leafs regardless for how many consecutive decades they suck for then the change of ownership is kind of moot.  There was no reason to get rid of JFJ ...or Burke or anyone ever really because quite frankly if fan interest is infinite then we should have already seen the "true rebuild" take place. 

Like really does that make any logical sense?  In this world where fans don't matter at all and the product on the ice is completely divorced from the money that the team makes ..then I really don't see any reason why this wouldn't have already happened. 

So I guess in short I disagree with you.  I don't believe that the guy calling into the radio show has an impact on the team but I do think the overall impression of what the team is doing does matter.  And that's why JFJ couldn't do a full rebuild and that's why Burke couldn't and until I see otherwise that's why nobody else will be and I'd even hazard to guess that the longer the leafs go without even being able to make the playoffs (which i know..isn't the goal..the goal is the cup) that the appetite for a full rebuild within and outside of the organization is only going to wither.

as far as what people call for on this board...that probably matters least of all

 

[skrackle]

I just wish the Leafs organization would for once see the forest through the trees and start a complete rebuild. No, it's not a guarantee of anything, but what they've been doing isn't working.

Maybe they should start by having chicken salad on rye for lunch instead of the usual tuna on toast and take it from there.

 

[rdowdall]

I don't see why those realities won't be the same.  People lose their stomach fairly quickly for this kind of thing and while I believe that you can do enough to convince people to patient right now especially if you could somehow engineer a collapse so complete as to have a shot at mcdavid but people are going to turn on you again fairly quickly in a few years.  If burke didn't feel he was going to be insulated from that kind of backlash ..who would feel comfortable enough to take the job knowing that they're going to get so far before the rug is pulled out from under them?

Well, to answer the first part where you ask why it would be different...it's a new board. The people who owned the majority of the team during the JFJ/Fletcher/Burke years don't own the team anymore. The people who would have put pressure on Burke, unless it was specifically Larry Tanenbaum as a minority owner, aren't there. And unlike the previous group of owners, the current owners aren't dependent on the hockey team itself being a big earner to justify their ownership. The Leafs revenues are a drop in an ocean for Rogers and Bell Media. Their fundamental interest in the Leafs is as programming. So unless you're making the argument that people will actually stop watching the Leafs because they're lousy there's no reason why things wouldn't change. If you are making that argument, then the last 10 years prove you wrong.

But more than that, if I can guess, that the "backlash" you're talking about will come from fans in which case I think you're wrong on two fronts. One, you're saying that in a thread with fans who are saying they can take a patient rebuild and two, you're drastically overestimating the impact loudmouth fans have on what the team does. The team is not run by the people who call into radio shows.

Well if your argument is that people watch the leafs regardless for how many consecutive decades they suck for then the change of ownership is kind of moot.  There was no reason to get rid of JFJ ...or Burke or anyone ever really because quite frankly if fan interest is infinite then we should have already seen the "true rebuild" take place. 

Like really does that make any logical sense?  In this world where fans don't matter at all and the product on the ice is completely divorced from the money that the team makes ..then I really don't see any reason why this wouldn't have already happened. 

So I guess in short I disagree with you.  I don't believe that the guy calling into the radio show has an impact on the team but I do think the overall impression of what the team is doing does matter.  And that's why JFJ couldn't do a full rebuild and that's why Burke couldn't and until I see otherwise that's why nobody else will be and I'd even hazard to guess that the longer the leafs go without even being able to make the playoffs (which i know..isn't the goal..the goal is the cup) that the appetite for a full rebuild within and outside of the organization is only going to wither.

as far as what people call for on this board...that probably matters least of all

I think the longer the Leafs go without a cup, the greater the pressure to win one "soon" grows.  Therefore eventually the GM of the Leafs falls in to the trap of thinking they are smart enough to rush the process.

 

[Kin]

Well if your argument is that people watch the leafs regardless for how many consecutive decades they suck for then the change of ownership is kind of moot.  There was no reason to get rid of JFJ ...or Burke or anyone ever really because quite frankly if fan interest is infinite then we should have already seen the "true rebuild" take place. 

Sure, if the ownership was primarily driven by an interest in winning Stanley Cups or were the sort of people who could be sold on "let's make marginally less money now for the payoff of a proper rebuild". The only it wouldn't work is if the team was owned by an organization whose fundamental interest is in sustainable profitability...you know, like a pension fund.

JFJ and Burke were given a task, build while maintaining the status quo of competitiveness. That's what they couldn't do. That's why they were fired. That's what you're missing. It's not a choice between rebuilding and making the playoffs. At this point it's a choice between a full rebuild and still missing the playoffs but drafting 11th. The aim they've taken fails on both ends.

Like really does that make any logical sense?  In this world where fans don't matter at all and the product on the ice is completely divorced from the money that the team makes ..then I really don't see any reason why this wouldn't have already happened.

I didn't say the product on the ice is completely divorced from the money the team makes. In fact, I go out of my way to say that's not true. I said that for the first time in essentially forever, the amount of money the team makes is largely irrelevant to the people that own the team and the difference between the amount of money the team would make if they continued going down the "retool" path and what they'd make if they did engage in a long-term rebuild is basically a rounding error to those owners.

But more to the point all the "logical sense" that you could want is found in the fact that we're now faced with a preponderance of evidence that what has until now been the Leafs SOP doesn't work. Even without the financial argument we now know that it doesn't work if you go out and hire a rookie GM. We know it doesn't work if you hire a well regarded GM with a ton of experience. Eventually, no matter the financial implications, it's going to become apparent to the people running the team that they're asking people to smash a brick wall with a rubber hammer.

So I guess in short I disagree with you.  I don't believe that the guy calling into the radio show has an impact on the team but I do think the overall impression of what the team is doing does matter.  And that's why JFJ couldn't do a full rebuild and that's why Burke couldn't and until I see otherwise that's why nobody else will be and I'd even hazard to guess that the longer the leafs go without even being able to make the playoffs (which i know..isn't the goal..the goal is the cup) that the appetite for a full rebuild within and outside of the organization is only going to wither.

Here's the thing. You're wrong but even if you were right then it doesn't fundamentally matter to the point at hand which is that there is a smarter way for the team to go about things. Smart fans should then focus that all-consuming power you think they have on the right targets which are the people who won't make the right decision for the team. It isn't "both ways are a crapshoot" it's there's a smart way and a smart way to do things and the team is committing, in your eyes, to the not smart way because of fan pressure.

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

Well if your argument is that people watch the leafs regardless for how many consecutive decades they suck for then the change of ownership is kind of moot.  There was no reason to get rid of JFJ ...or Burke or anyone ever really because quite frankly if fan interest is infinite then we should have already seen the "true rebuild" take place. 

Sure, if the ownership was primarily driven by an interest in winning Stanley Cups or were the sort of people who could be sold on "let's make marginally less money now for the payoff of a proper rebuild". The only it wouldn't work is if the team was owned by an organization whose fundamental interest is in sustainable profitability...you know, like a pension fund.

JFJ and Burke were given a task, build while maintaining the status quo of competitiveness. That's what they couldn't do. That's why they were fired. That's what you're missing. It's not a choice between rebuilding and making the playoffs. At this point it's a choice between a full rebuild and still missing the playoffs but drafting 11th. The aim they've taken fails on both ends.

Like really does that make any logical sense?  In this world where fans don't matter at all and the product on the ice is completely divorced from the money that the team makes ..then I really don't see any reason why this wouldn't have already happened.

I didn't say the product on the ice is completely divorced from the money the team makes. In fact, I go out of my way to say that's not true. I said that for the first time in essentially forever, the amount of money the team makes is largely irrelevant to the people that own the team and the difference between the amount of money the team would make if they continued going down the "retool" path and what they'd make if they did engage in a long-term rebuild is basically a rounding error to those owners.

But more to the point all the "logical sense" that you could want is found in the fact that we're now faced with a preponderance of evidence that what has until now been the Leafs SOP doesn't work. Even without the financial argument we now know that it doesn't work if you go out and hire a rookie GM. We know it doesn't work if you hire a well regarded GM with a ton of experience. Eventually, no matter the financial implications, it's going to become apparent to the people running the team that they're asking people to smash a brick wall with a rubber hammer.

So I guess in short I disagree with you.  I don't believe that the guy calling into the radio show has an impact on the team but I do think the overall impression of what the team is doing does matter.  And that's why JFJ couldn't do a full rebuild and that's why Burke couldn't and until I see otherwise that's why nobody else will be and I'd even hazard to guess that the longer the leafs go without even being able to make the playoffs (which i know..isn't the goal..the goal is the cup) that the appetite for a full rebuild within and outside of the organization is only going to wither.

Here's the thing. You're wrong but even if you were right then it doesn't fundamentally matter to the point at hand which is that there is a smarter way for the team to go about things. Smart fans should then focus that all-consuming power you think they have on the right targets which are the people who won't make the right decision for the team. It isn't "both ways are a crapshoot" it's there's a smart way and a smart way to do things and the team is committing, in your eyes, to the not smart way because of fan pressure.

you haven't convinced me in the least that there's anything significantly different about how the team is run now then it was before ...and therefore i see the same outcome..right or wrong....

 

[Kin]

you haven't convinced me in the least that there's anything significantly different about how the team is run now then it was before ...and therefore i see the same outcome..right or wrong....

I wasn't trying to convince you that things are different. I was making the case that things should be different and that pretending that both strategies are both "crapshoots" ignores the practical realities of building a hockey team and that the failures of GM's to succeed with a bad strategy doesn't reflect on the potential for success a future GM would have with a good one.

 

[crazyperfectdevil]

you haven't convinced me in the least that there's anything significantly different about how the team is run now then it was before ...and therefore i see the same outcome..right or wrong....

I wasn't trying to convince you that things are different. I was making the case that things should be different and that pretending that both strategies are both "crapshoots" ignores the practical realities of building a hockey team and that the failures of GM's to succeed with a bad strategy doesn't reflect on the potential for success a future GM would have with a good one.

but see..that's my point ....i'm not arguing what the right path is..i'm arguing that i think the path is more limited then people make it out to be..there are other constraints that people seem to pretend don't exist

 

[Kin]

but see..that's my point ....i'm not arguing what the right path is..i'm arguing that i think the path is more limited then people make it out to be..there are other constraints that people seem to pretend don't exist

Right, and I disagree with you that those actually do exist. Chiefly because your argument seems to be that not only are Maple Leafs fans as a whole exceptionally powerful but also that they're exceptionally stupid and don't know how to temper their feelings between a bad team whose best player is Jason Blake and a bad team whose best player is a 19 year old #1 draft pick.