The Habs Thread - Reloaded

[maplesyrup]

I don't know much about the prospects involved in the big trade but at first I thought Bourque for Cammalleri was pretty much a wash. After actually looking at Bourques' stats, I've only now realized that he's never cracked 60 points - Not in junior, not in the minors, and not in the NHL. In fact, he's only cracked 30 goals once (in the AHL.) I honestly don't think he's a first-liner on any NHL roster. It's clear to me now how much better of a player Cammalleri is and I've got to give Calgary a decisive win on this one. 

 

[Madferret]

Habs / Gauthier got taken on this one - pretty clever of Feaster to swoop in.

 

[bustaheims]

I don't know much about the prospects involved in the big trade but at first I thought Bourque for Cammalleri was pretty much a wash. After actually looking at Bourques' stats, I've only now realized that he's never cracked 60 points - Not in junior, not in the minors, and not in the NHL. In fact, he's only cracked 30 goals once (in the AHL.) I honestly don't think he's a first-liner on any NHL roster. It's clear to me now how much better of a player Cammalleri is and I've got to give Calgary a decisive win on this one.

85 points in the AJHL in 99-00, and, as an NCAA, not cracking 60 points during that stretch of his career is hardly surprising or indicative of anything, as it's something very few NCAA player do. Also, he did hit exactly 60 points in his one AHL season.

Honestly, at the NHL level (which is all that really matters at this point) outside of his two 80+ seasons, Cammalleri's production is pretty much identical to Bourque's.

 

[bustaheims]

Habs / Gauthier got taken on this one - pretty clever of Feaster to swoop in.

I'm not sure I agree. This trade doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Calgary. Why they're "going for it" with an older roster that's on the outside of the playoffs, a weak farm system and no cap room, I just can't understand. In reality, this was a trade neither team probably should have made.

 

[maplesyrup]

I don't know much about the prospects involved in the big trade but at first I thought Bourque for Cammalleri was pretty much a wash. After actually looking at Bourques' stats, I've only now realized that he's never cracked 60 points - Not in junior, not in the minors, and not in the NHL. In fact, he's only cracked 30 goals once (in the AHL.) I honestly don't think he's a first-liner on any NHL roster. It's clear to me now how much better of a player Cammalleri is and I've got to give Calgary a decisive win on this one.

85 points in the AJHL in 99-00, and, as an NCAA, not cracking 60 points during that stretch of his career is hardly surprising or indicative of anything, as it's something very few NCAA player do. Also, he did hit exactly 60 points in his one AHL season.

Honestly, at the NHL level (which is all that really matters at this point) outside of his two 80+ seasons, Cammalleri's production is pretty much identical to Bourque's.

When I went to his page at thehockeynews.com, it only went back to 2000/2001... Still, Cammalleri is the far better player I think and why do you discount his two 80+ point seasons?

 

[bustaheims]

When I went to his page at thehockeynews.com, it only went back to 2000/2001... Still, Cammalleri is the far better player I think and why do you discount his two 80+ point seasons?

Mainly because they're outliers. They're deviations from his norm. He may, on occasion, be able to put up those numbers, but, he is generally a 50ish point guy who only plays ~65 games a year.

 

[maplesyrup]

When I went to his page at thehockeynews.com, it only went back to 2000/2001... Still, Cammalleri is the far better player I think and why do you discount his two 80+ point seasons?

Mainly because they're outliers. They're deviations from his norm. He may, on occasion, be able to put up those numbers, but, he is generally a 50ish point guy who only plays ~65 games a year.

But never could Bourque and certainly not in the NHL. I wouldn't be surprised to see Cammalleri's production explode again in the second half and Bourque's stay where it has been - 2nd liner (at best) type numbers.

 

[bustaheims]

But never could Bourque and certainly not in the NHL. I wouldn't be surprised to see Cammalleri's production explode again in the second half and Bourque's stay where it has been - 2nd liner (at best) type numbers.

Just because Bourque hasn't doesn't mean he can't, nor does the fact that Cammalleri has mean he will again. In fact, considering his injury history, tendency towards selfishness (an issue that plagued him in LA, his first stint in Calgary and, again, in Montreal), as well as his apparent lack of motivation, it wouldn't surprise me if he never reaches those heights again - and, I certainly don't see it happening in the back half of this season, considering that Calgary is only slightly less of a mess than the Habs. At this point, they really are very comparable players, except that one comes with a $6M cap hit, and the other actually has a physical element to his game.

 

[Madferret]

Habs / Gauthier got taken on this one - pretty clever of Feaster to swoop in.

I'm not sure I agree. This trade doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Calgary. Why they're "going for it" with an older roster that's on the outside of the playoffs, a weak farm system and no cap room, I just can't understand. In reality, this was a trade neither team probably should have made.

Yeah - Cammalleri is a better 'out' to have over Bourque is what I meant by that.

 

[bustaheims]

Yeah - Cammalleri is a better 'out' to have over Bourque is what I meant by that.

I suppose, though, if I were a team in Calgary's position, I think I'd prefer to have the close to $3M in extra cap space, even if it came with 2 extra years on the contract. Should the need to create cap space arise, moving Bourque's $3.3M in cap for 4 years is certainly a more simple task than moving Cammalleri's $6M for 2 - or, at least, one that wouldn't come with as high a likelihood of another contract coming back as part of the return. Considering their levels of production over the past 2 and a half season, Bourque is a much better value.

 

[Madferret]

Yeah - Cammalleri is a better 'out' to have over Bourque is what I meant by that.

I suppose, though, if I were a team in Calgary's position, I think I'd prefer to have the close to $3M in extra cap space, even if it came with 2 extra years on the contract. Should the need to create cap space arise, moving Bourque's $3.3M in cap for 4 years is certainly a more simple task than moving Cammalleri's $6M for 2 - or, at least, one that wouldn't come with as high a likelihood of another contract coming back as part of the return. Considering their levels of production over the past 2 and a half season, Bourque is a much better value.

You're giving the Goat way too much credit there!

 

[bustaheims]

You're giving the Goat way too much credit there!

Only as collateral damage of my criticism of Jay Feaster.

 

[Madferret]

You're giving the Goat way too much credit there!

Only as collateral damage of my criticism of Jay Feaster.

Fair enough.

 

[maplesyrup]

Bourque better value than Cammalleri? Probably... I mean he'd have to be in order for that deal to work because again, Cammalleri is the better player. Again though, I don't know much about the prospects going the other way which obviously could shift the scale some.   

 

[maplesyrup]

Bourque career points per game .55
Cammalleri career points per game .76

Jesus. No offence Busta but there's a galaxy between the two.

 

[bustaheims]

Bourque career points per game .55
Cammalleri career points per game .76

Jesus. No offence Busta but there's a galaxy between the two.

Sure, but, that's because Cammalleri has, as we've documented, 2 seasons where he produced well above levels he produced in any of his other 5 full seasons as an NHL player (this season included), and that Bourque has only fairly recently shown himself to be a very productive NHL forward. In the last 2 and a half seasons, however, the numbers play out as such:

Bourque - 0.65 P/g
Cammalleri - 0.70 P/g

Not exactly a significant difference there, especially when you consider you're much more likely to get a full season out of Bourque than you are out of Cammalleri - or, at least, things have certainly swung that way.

 

[maplesyrup]

Bourque career points per game .55
Cammalleri career points per game .76

Jesus. No offence Busta but there's a galaxy between the two.

Sure, but, that's because Cammalleri has, as we've documented, 2 seasons where he produced well above levels he produced in any of his other 5 full seasons as an NHL player, and that Bourque has only fairly recently shown himself to be a very productive NHL forward. In the last 2 and a half seasons, however, the numbers play out as such:

Bourque - 0.65 P/g
Cammalleri - 0.70 P/g

Not exactly a significant difference there, especially when you consider you're much more likely to get a full season out of Bourque than you are out of Cammalleri.

... but like I said, I feel Cammalleri's production will get better now that he's back in Calgary where he had one of his best years and Bourque's probably won't. Over the next while, that gap I feel will widen.

 

[bustaheims]

... but like I said, I feel Cammalleri's production will get better now that he's back in Calgary where he had one of his best years and Bourque's probably won't. Over the next while, that gap I feel will widen.

You say that, but, to be entirely honest, I have not seen anything in his regular season play since settling in with the Habs that gives any sort of indication of that. Obviously, the Flames hope that he will, but, that's really all they have for it - hope. Until it actually does, that hope/feeling/whatever is pretty much worthless.

 

[maplesyrup]

... but like I said, I feel Cammalleri's production will get better now that he's back in Calgary where he had one of his best years and Bourque's probably won't. Over the next while, that gap I feel will widen.

You say that, but, to be entirely honest, I have not seen anything in his regular season play since settling in with the Habs that gives any sort of indication of that. Obviously, the Flames hope that he will, but, that's really all they have for it - hope. Until it actually does, that hope/feeling/whatever is pretty much worthless.

Well, I think Iginla is 1000% better than any forward Cammalleri had the benefit of playing with in Montreal and while that didn't help Bourque much the stats show that it certainly helped Cammalleri while he was there. So while my hope/feeling/whatever might be worthless at the moment, I'd wager the odds are with me here and that I'll be proven right. - I know stranger things have happened though so...

 

[bustaheims]

Well, I think Iginla is 1000% better than any forward Cammalleri had the benefit of playing with in Montreal and while that didn't help Bourque much the stats show that it certainly helped Cammalleri while he was there. So while my hope/feeling/whatever might be worthless at the moment, I'd wager the odds are with me here and that I'll be proven right. - I know stranger things have happened though so...

You're certainly entitled to that belief, but, as I've said before, the Flames are only slightly less of a mess than the Habs, and, they're a significantly older line-up as well - which, for what it's worth, has been scoring at a slower rate than Montreal's this season. They may have the best player in Iginla. As for what the stats show, I'm not sure I'd read too much into Cammalleri's single season as a Flame. Iginla is almost 3 years older and beginning to start to show the signs of aging and the wear and tear of so many NHL seasons. That, combined with Cammalleri's injury issues over the past few seasons . . . well, it just doesn't add up in your favour.