The Unofficial Fire Ron Wilson/Ron Wilson is the Greatest Thread

[Kessel Run]

So if the rest of the season plays out as it is at the moment, is that 4 straight years Wilson and the Leafs have been bottom 3 in goals against and penalty kill? Also the powerplay was pretty bad for 2 or 3 of those years as well. Add that to missing the playoffs all 4 years, hard not to fire him this summer.

 

[cw]

Ron Wilson, left, and Brian Burke as teammates and co-captains at Providence College in 1976.

Maple Leafs GM Brian Burke facing dirty job if Ron Wilson has to go

Both men understand the business. It may not be easy to fire Wilson because of their friendship but both will understand that it has to be done if the team falls short of the playoffs.

 

[avatarx51]

Ron Wilson, left, and Brian Burke as teammates and co-captains at Providence College in 1976.

Maple Leafs GM Brian Burke facing dirty job if Ron Wilson has to go

Both men understand the business. It may not be easy to fire Wilson because of their friendship but both will understand that it has to be done if the team falls short of the playoffs.

This is a quote from Burke

?This is a coach who?s earned this, a coach who?s earned this extension,? Burke said in a news conference at the time. ?It?s not charity. It?s not a gift.?

I am scratching my head right now, either the standards are so low or these guys are still best buddies, best bet is to get rid of both of them.  next year will be the 5th year under Burke and Wilson not even a playoff yet.  If this is called progress then i dont want to see progress anymore

 

[Corn Flake]

*steps out from under falling sky for a moment*

I think the coach needs to be changed, and removing the emotional uptick we've all been through the last month, making the change follows the pattern teams seem to have to go through when they go from young and learning but losing to finally flipping the switch in their heads to being winners.

Pittsburgh, Chicago and Washington all went through this when they were very young teams. All 3 teams fired their coach mid-season (Therien, Savard, Hanlon) who were all kind of in the same state as Wilson.. dealing with young team who couldn't make the jump... so a new voice comes into each room and boom.. within no time they all vaulted to legit status.

Yes you can argue the difference in talent all you want but the fact still remains that a very very young team can't seem to take the next step without a coaching change.  The Leafs being in the top 8 until 1.5 weeks ago probably masked things a bit, but no doubt at this point they are a young team learning and full of potential but now stuck in the losing mode and can't seem to flip the switch.

 

[Corn Flake]

This is a quote from Burke

?This is a coach who?s earned this, a coach who?s earned this extension,? Burke said in a news conference at the time. ?It?s not charity. It?s not a gift.?

I am scratching my head right now, either the standards are so low or these guys are still best buddies, best bet is to get rid of both of them.  next year will be the 5th year under Burke and Wilson not even a playoff yet.  If this is called progress then i dont want to see progress anymore

The Leafs were in the playoff picture when that extension was handed out, and they had more or less been in the hunt all season long. 

Do you think Burke foresaw a 1-9 disaster run in Feb? 

I get that everybody hates Wilson and hated him back in December, but a coach who spent 3 years developing a team who looked like they had broken through was deserving of some credit, and he got it.

 

[Erndog]

Yes you can argue the difference in talent all you want but the fact still remains that a very very young team can't seem to take the next step without a coaching change.  The Leafs being in the top 8 until 1.5 weeks ago probably masked things a bit, but no doubt at this point they are a young team learning and full of potential but now stuck in the losing mode and can't seem to flip the switch.

I know you keep harping on us being "very young" but I'm starting to have trouble digesting that.

Kessel (24... this season likely shows his ceiling, I doubt he gets significantly better from here), Lupul (28), Grabovski (28), Phaneuf (26), Liles (31), Connolly (30), MacArthur (26), among others.

These are essentially our top players, the guys we rely on the most and while they are "young" sure, they aren't rookies or sophmores or anything.  Heck, after this year Kessel has played 6 seasons.

 

[Corn Flake]

Yes you can argue the difference in talent all you want but the fact still remains that a very very young team can't seem to take the next step without a coaching change.  The Leafs being in the top 8 until 1.5 weeks ago probably masked things a bit, but no doubt at this point they are a young team learning and full of potential but now stuck in the losing mode and can't seem to flip the switch.

I know you keep harping on us being "very young" but I'm starting to have trouble digesting that.

Kessel (24... this season likely shows his ceiling, I doubt he gets significantly better from here), Lupul (28), Grabovski (28), Phaneuf (26), Liles (31), Connolly (30), MacArthur (26), among others.

These are essentially our top players, the guys we rely on the most and while they are "young" sure, they aren't rookies or sophmores or anything.  Heck, after this year Kessel has played 6 seasons.

Every one of the teams I mentioned had older players on them too. It isn't just about the individuals.. I think collectively as a team they have to learn to win and it seems to take a coaching change to make that happen.

As far as the individuals, your list has 7 of 23 players, but I hear what you are saying.  The challenge with some of those guys is what have they been exposed to as far as being on winning teams and can say "hey I've been through this and come out the other side".  Grabbo's NHL experience has only been in a losing Leafs environment.  Half of Kessel's years the same.  Phaneuf some good exposure in Calgary and Liles had lots as well but you need more.  Connolly I think has lent nothing to this team.  Mac? Somewhere in the middle.

 

[ZBBM]

This is a quote from Burke

?This is a coach who?s earned this, a coach who?s earned this extension,? Burke said in a news conference at the time. ?It?s not charity. It?s not a gift.?

I am scratching my head right now, either the standards are so low or these guys are still best buddies, best bet is to get rid of both of them.  next year will be the 5th year under Burke and Wilson not even a playoff yet.  If this is called progress then i dont want to see progress anymore

The Leafs were in the playoff picture when that extension was handed out, and they had more or less been in the hunt all season long. 

Do you think Burke foresaw a 1-9 disaster run in Feb? 

I get that everybody hates Wilson and hated him back in December, but a coach who spent 3 years developing a team who looked like they had broken through was deserving of some credit, and he got it.

"Some credit," yes, and please rerember that even people like me were giving it to him.  But the team hadn't accomplished anything concrete yet, as we now have discovered.  There is no way in hell he deserved an extension then.  Burke gave it to him because of his friendship, period.  A terrible, terrible decision.

 

[Kin]

The Raptors Colangelo will probably go before Burke if things don't improve with the Raptors and they also remember too well what their prior Raptors GMs were like.

I honestly think right now Colangelo has more to hang his hat on than Burke does if both guys are coming up for a review. Colangelo seems to have positioned his team pretty well in terms of cap space and collecting assets. He also just made a coaching hire that seems to have worked out pretty well. He seems committed to a long term rebuild.

 

[Corn Flake]

This is a quote from Burke

?This is a coach who?s earned this, a coach who?s earned this extension,? Burke said in a news conference at the time. ?It?s not charity. It?s not a gift.?

I am scratching my head right now, either the standards are so low or these guys are still best buddies, best bet is to get rid of both of them.  next year will be the 5th year under Burke and Wilson not even a playoff yet.  If this is called progress then i dont want to see progress anymore

The Leafs were in the playoff picture when that extension was handed out, and they had more or less been in the hunt all season long. 

Do you think Burke foresaw a 1-9 disaster run in Feb? 

I get that everybody hates Wilson and hated him back in December, but a coach who spent 3 years developing a team who looked like they had broken through was deserving of some credit, and he got it.

"Some credit," yes, and please rerember that even people like me were giving it to him.  But the team hadn't accomplished anything concrete yet, as we now have discovered.  There is no way in hell he deserved an extension then.  Burke gave it to him because of his friendship, period.  A terrible, terrible decision.

Alright well *shrugs*....  I'm not going to try and change your mind here.. I think purely based on friendship is a stretch and incredibly unprofessional if true, which to me is questioning the character of someone who I don't think its warranted to do so, but if that is what you believe then hey, whatever works.

 

[Kin]

See cw's post.  There's value in those trades, it's just really poor value.  Do you seriously want Burke to make "Perreault for a 2nd rounder" kinds of deadline trades like JFJ made?

Yes. I do. I want Brian Burke to make the worst possible example of those kinds of trades. That way, the team will get worse and I'll be immeasurably happy. Because that's what I'm saying.

 

[cw]

The Raptors Colangelo will probably go before Burke if things don't improve with the Raptors and they also remember too well what their prior Raptors GMs were like.

I honestly think right now Colangelo has more to hang his hat on than Burke does if both guys are coming up for a review. Colangelo seems to have positioned his team pretty well in terms of cap space and collecting assets. He also just made a coaching hire that seems to have worked out pretty well. He seems committed to a long term rebuild.

He got off to a good start but the five seasons since including this one haven't been very good and it was all downhill after his first season. His fifth season led them to the 3rd worst record in the NBA. In his 6th season, they're currently the 5th worst club. I just can't get very excited about that record.

Hopefully, the promise for their future turns out because if it doesn't, I think he's used up all his mulligans.

I think Burke has a mulligan or two left in his tenure.

 

[Kin]

His fifth season led them to the 3rd worst record in the NBA. In his 6th season, they're currently the 5th worst club. I just can't get very excited about that record.

I think most people in the know, however, attribute that slide to Bosh leaving which was something largely outside of his control. He made a game attempt to keep Bosh, which may have been his mistake, but once Bosh left he committed to a proper rebuild that's seen some promise. Like I said, I think the Raptors are better positioned going forward than the Leafs. Having a top 5 pick in a draft that most agree is going to be one of the best in years doesn't strike most Raptors fans I know as a negative. Most fans I know are actively rooting for the team to sink lower and maybe have a shot at Anthony Davis.

But even as such, I'll take the track record of one good season over the track record of no good seasons.

 

[Bender]

*steps out from under falling sky for a moment*

I think the coach needs to be changed, and removing the emotional uptick we've all been through the last month, making the change follows the pattern teams seem to have to go through when they go from young and learning but losing to finally flipping the switch in their heads to being winners.

Pittsburgh, Chicago and Washington all went through this when they were very young teams. All 3 teams fired their coach mid-season (Therien, Savard, Hanlon) who were all kind of in the same state as Wilson.. dealing with young team who couldn't make the jump... so a new voice comes into each room and boom.. within no time they all vaulted to legit status.

Yes you can argue the difference in talent all you want but the fact still remains that a very very young team can't seem to take the next step without a coaching change.  The Leafs being in the top 8 until 1.5 weeks ago probably masked things a bit, but no doubt at this point they are a young team learning and full of potential but now stuck in the losing mode and can't seem to flip the switch.

At the same time, it's really interesting to hear Paul Maurice give his spin on things. I don't have the link here, but he went on to say that "The players work for the coach but they play for each other." And he went on to say that a team gives up on each other long before they tune out the coach.

Really gives an insight into things that we really have no idea about.

 

[Kin]

At the same time, it's really interesting to hear Paul Maurice give his spin on things. I don't have the link here, but he went on to say that "The players work for the coach but they play for each other." And he went on to say that a team gives up on each other long before they tune out the coach.

I miss Paul Maurice. Sure, he got lousy results too but at least he seemed in good humour about it.

 

[cw]

*steps out from under falling sky for a moment*

I think the coach needs to be changed, and removing the emotional uptick we've all been through the last month, making the change follows the pattern teams seem to have to go through when they go from young and learning but losing to finally flipping the switch in their heads to being winners.

Pittsburgh, Chicago and Washington all went through this when they were very young teams. All 3 teams fired their coach mid-season (Therien, Savard, Hanlon) who were all kind of in the same state as Wilson.. dealing with young team who couldn't make the jump... so a new voice comes into each room and boom.. within no time they all vaulted to legit status.

Yes you can argue the difference in talent all you want but the fact still remains that a very very young team can't seem to take the next step without a coaching change.  The Leafs being in the top 8 until 1.5 weeks ago probably masked things a bit, but no doubt at this point they are a young team learning and full of potential but now stuck in the losing mode and can't seem to flip the switch.

At the same time, it's really interesting to hear Paul Maurice give his spin on things. I don't have the link here, but he went on to say that "The players work for the coach but they play for each other." And he went on to say that a team gives up on each other long before they tune out the coach.

Really gives an insight into things that we really have no idea about.

It was a good interview
http://www.fan590.com/media.jsp?content=20120301_093224_12100

I don't buy a coaching change is always necessary generically.

Glen Sather did ok with a young Oilers team. Al Arbour didn't do too badly with a young Islanders team either.
Barry Trotz is highly respected and may be poised to do something special with the Predators. etc.

Just a few examples.

In the Leafs case, I do think a different coach would be a good thing for these youngsters. If Barry Trotz was coaching here or Dave Tippett, I might not feel the same way.

 

[Kin]

Guys, making a change right now does nothing.

There's always value in firing someone if they deserve to be fired. If everyone knows that Wilson's job merits dismissal, what message does it send to let him keep around? If the team has tuned him out, do you really want that environment to continue to exist for one game, let alone 18? If there's a 1 in a 100 chance of making the playoffs, why not take it?

 

[maplesyrup]

Guys, making a change right now does nothing.

There's always value in firing someone if they deserve to be fired. If everyone knows that Wilson's job merits dismissal, what message does it send to let him keep around? If the team has tuned him out, do you really want that environment to continue to exist for one game, let alone 18? If there's a 1 in a 100 chance of making the playoffs, why not take it?

I wouldn't object to an interim guy until more choices present themselves but realistically, I don't think it does much (probably nothing in fact) to improve our playoff chances. 

 

[Kin]

But the team hadn't accomplished anything concrete yet, as we now have discovered.  There is no way in hell he deserved an extension then.

Well put. Horses don't get their carrots halfway through the race.

 

[Peter D.]

At the same time, it's really interesting to hear Paul Maurice give his spin on things. I don't have the link here, but he went on to say that "The players work for the coach but they play for each other." And he went on to say that a team gives up on each other long before they tune out the coach.

Really gives an insight into things that we really have no idea about.

I caught the interview too.  Is it possibly the leadership (Phaneuf and the alternates)?  Is there a faction in the dressing room?

Come to think about it, regarding my second question, I'm not entirely sold that this is a tight-knit group.  Just the collection of guys and seeing them on the bench and the ice, something seems...off almost.  It's great to trump being a super young team, but maybe that's the pitfalls of not having at least one grizzled vet on the team.