The Unofficial Fire Ron Wilson/Ron Wilson is the Greatest Thread

[Leaflifer]

I really have no background knowledge on this (Allaire's credentials), but it does appear that Reimer and Gus look like they are playing a style that is failing them. They look like the same goalie making the same mistakes. If it weren't for different numbers on their backs I wouldn't know who was in net.

I could see how it could be better for some goalies, and some not so much.

The style looks so rigid, almost as if you could teach a non goalie skater who has good reflexes that style and they would do no better or worse than a guy who has been in goal all his playing life.

I remember when Potvin started his decline in Toronto. He was down early and deep in the net.

Maybe they figure the NHL is such a huge jump from AHL that they must relearn their game or they wont make it.

I am certain psychology is a huge part of it too for goaltenders.

 

[Corn Flake]

Those ripping Allaire's qualifications know he coached Roy, right?  Just wanted to mention that.

Yeah, but does that really mean anything? Roy is arguably the greatest goaltender of all time. Are we to attribute that to Allaire, or Roy's own superb talent?

Allaire's list of credentials is pretty short for a guy with as much fanfare as he has. The fact that our goaltending hasn't improve one iota since his arrival makes me question whether or not the reputation is deserved.

Of course, we could just have really bad goalies...I still think its reasonable to question Allaire at this point.

No player no matter how good does it without any coaching. 

Allaire's style is the one most current era goalies model themselves after. He started the trend.  Just some execute better than others.  Giguere, Bryzgalov and Hiller were all under him in Anaheim.  They did ok.  (*prepare for dismissal of Allaire because Bryz is struggling this year*) 

As mentioned, Monster said he was modeling after his style long before he got here. 

All of the young goalies the Leafs have signed in recent years said they did so because they wanted to learn from Allaire.  But we internet lurkers know better, right? /sarcasm

You can't coach confidence.  If you could teams wouldn't go into slumps - ever.  He's got two goalies struggling big time and when things get bad in a game who are they turning to? not each other... hence the need for a veteran presence on the bench to help.  This is and remains the #1 problem. Not the goalie coach.

 

[Tigger]

Something else to consider while getting way off topic, Allaire's 'style' is also taught by brother Benoit who's been coaching Lundqvist from day one in New York and is also credited with turning around Khabibulin and Sean Burke prior to that in Phoenix.

 

[Corn Flake]

I really have no background knowledge on this (Allaire's credentials), but it does appear that Reimer and Gus look like they are playing a style that is failing them. They look like the same goalie making the same mistakes. If it weren't for different numbers on their backs I wouldn't know who was in net.

I could see how it could be better for some goalies, and some not so much.

The style looks so rigid, almost as if you could teach a non goalie skater who has good reflexes that style and they would do no better or worse than a guy who has been in goal all his playing life.

I remember when Potvin started his decline in Toronto. He was down early and deep in the net.

Maybe they figure the NHL is such a huge jump from AHL that they must relearn their game or they wont make it.

I am certain psychology is a huge part of it too for goaltenders.

Watch Reimer from last year and Reimer from this year.  Same style being taught... execution is night and day.

As you pointed out about Potvin, when confidence gets real low they start to do things they shouldn't be doing.  That isn't coaching, it's confidence.

 

[pnjunction]

I still think its reasonable to question Allaire at this point.

Apparently not...

Either way the point I was starting from is that Ron, as bad as he has been (bad decisions, throwing players under the bus, standing there with a stupid look on his face while the team implodes) might really have been screwed by his buddy Burke on goaltending this year.

Part of why I was mentioning Allaire is that no matter how awesome his technique he has no NHL playing experience of his own to relate to our young goalies.

 

[Tigger]

Part of why I was mentioning Allaire is that no matter how awesome his technique he has no NHL playing experience of his own to relate to our young goalies.

Well I know it's not entirely fair to bring it up but Roy was a rookie when he won his first cup, that might not translate into 'playing experience' but I don't think relating to young goalies has ever been an issue for him outside of Bryzgalov and that sounded like a few things were involved at the time, not just his relationship with Frankie.

Reimer, while being all things cheery, heavily credits him for getting as far as he's gone, fwiw.

 

[Bender]

I still think its reasonable to question Allaire at this point.

Apparently not...

Either way the point I was starting from is that Ron, as bad as he has been (bad decisions, throwing players under the bus, standing there with a stupid look on his face while the team implodes) might really have been screwed by his buddy Burke on goaltending this year.

Part of why I was mentioning Allaire is that no matter how awesome his technique he has no NHL playing experience of his own to relate to our young goalies.

Reasonable in what sense? What evidence do we have besides "our goalies suck." Going on that one premise I think questioning Allaire is paper thin. "He hasn't played in the NHL." Also paper thin when you consider the players he taught and how much damn research and years he put into this.

http://www.thehockeysource.tv/sectionsourceknowledge/interviews_allaire0505.php

Owuya's doing great in the ECHL and in the A. Must have NOTHING to do with Allaire.

 

[Corn Flake]

Owuya's doing great in the ECHL and in the A. Must have NOTHING to do with Allaire.

Reimer's rise from ECHL to NHL to almost getting the Leafs in the playoffs last year had nothing to do with him either. 

 

[pnjunction]

I still think its reasonable to question Allaire at this point.

Apparently not...

Either way the point I was starting from is that Ron, as bad as he has been (bad decisions, throwing players under the bus, standing there with a stupid look on his face while the team implodes) might really have been screwed by his buddy Burke on goaltending this year.

Part of why I was mentioning Allaire is that no matter how awesome his technique he has no NHL playing experience of his own to relate to our young goalies.

Reasonable in what sense? What evidence do we have besides "our goalies suck." Going on that one premise I think questioning Allaire is paper thin. "He hasn't played in the NHL." Also paper thin when you consider the players he taught and how much damn research and years he put into this.

http://www.thehockeysource.tv/sectionsourceknowledge/interviews_allaire0505.php

Owuya's doing great in the ECHL and in the A. Must have NOTHING to do with Allaire.

You're being over-sensitive here. I'm not pointing out his lack of NHL career as a reason to fire him, I'm pointing it out as one reason for how awful things have gotten here now.  As far as whether to bring in a veteran player or a veteran coach, I think the former is probably better because he can be a calming influence during the game as Giguere seemed to be.  Still the panelists in the last game were throwing out names like Joseph for goalie coach they are just foolish idiots I guess.

 

[bustaheims]

Allaire's style is the one most current era goalies model themselves after. He started the trend.  Just some execute better than others.  Giguere, Bryzgalov and Hiller were all under him in Anaheim.  They did ok.  (*prepare for dismissal of Allaire because Bryz is struggling this year*) 

For what it's worth, it's been reported that Bryzgalov and Allaire didn't have the greatest relationship, so, he may have been a student of Allaire in the same way Toskala was - reluctantly and dismissively, and now that's he's not playing behind a defence first team anymore, he's struggling. That's on him, not Allaire.

 

[cw]

I still think its reasonable to question Allaire at this point.

Apparently not...

Either way the point I was starting from is that Ron, as bad as he has been (bad decisions, throwing players under the bus, standing there with a stupid look on his face while the team implodes) might really have been screwed by his buddy Burke on goaltending this year.

Part of why I was mentioning Allaire is that no matter how awesome his technique he has no NHL playing experience of his own to relate to our young goalies.

Reasonable in what sense? What evidence do we have besides "our goalies suck." Going on that one premise I think questioning Allaire is paper thin. "He hasn't played in the NHL." Also paper thin when you consider the players he taught and how much damn research and years he put into this.

http://www.thehockeysource.tv/sectionsourceknowledge/interviews_allaire0505.php

Owuya's doing great in the ECHL and in the A. Must have NOTHING to do with Allaire.

You're being over-sensitive here. I'm not pointing out his lack of NHL career as a reason to fire him, I'm pointing it out as one reason for how awful things have gotten here now.

So far, he's turned one 4th round pick, Reimer, into at least a NHL backup and maybe a starter.

As I recall, UFAs Gustavsson, Scrivens, Rynnas & Owuya all indicated that a key part of the reason they signed with the Leafs was to get coaching from Allaire. In other words, we may not have any of them if Francois wasn't with the Leafs.

If we asked all the hockey experts in the world to rank the goalie coaching in the NHL, maybe Mitch Korn or someone else would take the #1 ranking but I think it would be darn near impossible to expect to find Allaire ranked 30th. He remains a very well regarded goalie coach. I simply can't fathom how that isn't a significant asset - particularly relative to what the Leafs have had over the last couple of decades when goalie coaches started to make their mark.

Like any hockey player, it's up to the player to distill the coaching with his ability. Blaming the goalie coach for what ails the Leafs goalies strikes me as a fair stretch of a conclusion at this point in time. The most experienced of them, Gustavsson, has started all of 103 NHL games. It's a position that requires the most development time and it's the position that seems to be the most difficult to predict - even from NHL season to NHL season.

I continue to thank my lucky stars we have a guy like Allaire attracting and helping to develop prospects.

 

[Bender]

I still think its reasonable to question Allaire at this point.

Apparently not...

Either way the point I was starting from is that Ron, as bad as he has been (bad decisions, throwing players under the bus, standing there with a stupid look on his face while the team implodes) might really have been screwed by his buddy Burke on goaltending this year.

Part of why I was mentioning Allaire is that no matter how awesome his technique he has no NHL playing experience of his own to relate to our young goalies.

Reasonable in what sense? What evidence do we have besides "our goalies suck." Going on that one premise I think questioning Allaire is paper thin. "He hasn't played in the NHL." Also paper thin when you consider the players he taught and how much damn research and years he put into this.

http://www.thehockeysource.tv/sectionsourceknowledge/interviews_allaire0505.php

Owuya's doing great in the ECHL and in the A. Must have NOTHING to do with Allaire.

You're being over-sensitive here. I'm not pointing out his lack of NHL career as a reason to fire him, I'm pointing it out as one reason for how awful things have gotten here now.

So far, he's turned one 4th round pick, Reimer, into at least a NHL backup and maybe a starter.

As I recall, UFAs Gustavsson, Scrivens, Rynnas & Owuya all indicated that a key part of the reason they signed with the Leafs was to get coaching from Allaire. In other words, we may not have any of them if Francois wasn't with the Leafs.

If we asked all the hockey experts in the world to rank the goalie coaching in the NHL, maybe Mitch Korn or someone else would take the #1 ranking but I think it would be darn near impossible to expect to find Allaire ranked 30th. He remains a very well regarded goalie coach. I simply can't fathom how that isn't a significant asset - particularly relative to what the Leafs have had over the last couple of decades when goalie coaches started to make their mark.

Like any hockey player, it's up to the player to distill the coaching with his ability. Blaming the goalie coach for what ails the Leafs goalies strikes me as a fair stretch of a conclusion at this point in time. The most experienced of them, Gustavsson, has started all of 103 NHL games. It's a position that requires the most development time and it's the position that seems to be the most difficult to predict - even from NHL season to NHL season.

I continue to thank my lucky stars we have a guy like Allaire attracting and helping to develop prospects.

A pleasure as always, CW.

 

[lamajama]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.....

In order for any Leaf goalie to succeed behind this team's defensive
system (an oxymoron if I ever heard one) is if you have a prime-time
Cujo or Belfour or currently maybe a Lundqvist.

You just cannot tell me that the St Louis Blue's goalies or the Coyotes
goalies are *that good*. They're not. It's the system in front of them. IMO even Brodeur's numbers are vastly enhanced by being behind the NJ system. The one year they fell apart system-wise was last year and he struggled to the point of "he's lost it" whispers.

I think that having a young/rookie goalie trying to find his way behind this
team/system is impossible. And who is responsible for this? Wilson and Burke. Got to be entertaining to sell the tickets here in Toronto... :

 

[pnjunction]

I continue to thank my lucky stars we have a guy like Allaire attracting and helping to develop prospects.

I'll reserve my celestial thanks for results.

All of the wishful thinking and reputations have amounted to nothing but lots of hot air to go with the failure so far, goes for the whole 'Burke era' really.

 

[lc9]

I continue to thank my lucky stars we have a guy like Allaire attracting and helping to develop prospects.

There is a difference between not blaming a coach and thanking your lucky stars a coach is around.  I think goalie coaches probably have minimum effect, so I can't blame Allaire for how poorly Gus and Remier have played.  But I am not ready to think Allaire is making any bit of difference.  And if he has made a difference then, based on the results, I would have to conclude that he isn't doing a very good job.  A pitching coach would have been fired by now, if we were to use a baseball analogy. 

So in conclusion, I feel Allaire makes little difference.  However, I find it curious that you feel the difference he provides is a positive one, when all goaltending results for the Leafs provide a stark contrast to the conclusion you have drawn.

 

[Mikhail Bloodnovsky]

I continue to thank my lucky stars we have a guy like Allaire attracting and helping to develop prospects.

So in conclusion, I feel Allaire makes little difference.  However, I find it curious that you feel the difference he provides is a positive one, when all goaltending results for the Leafs provide a stark contrast to the conclusion you have drawn.

Allaire is a goal tending coach and the goal tending has been atrocious. It pretty much starts and ends there. To say it's all his fault is ridiculous but the buck has to stop somewhere.

We are easy to blame Wilson for awful PK. How is this any different.

 

[cw]

I continue to thank my lucky stars we have a guy like Allaire attracting and helping to develop prospects.

There is a difference between not blaming a coach and thanking your lucky stars a coach is around.  I think goalie coaches probably have minimum effect, so I can't blame Allaire for how poorly Gus and Remier have played.  But I am not ready to think Allaire is making any bit of difference.  And if he has made a difference then, based on the results, I would have to conclude that he isn't doing a very good job.  A pitching coach would have been fired by now, if we were to use a baseball analogy. 

So in conclusion, I feel Allaire makes little difference.  However, I find it curious that you feel the difference he provides is a positive one, when all goaltending results for the Leafs provide a stark contrast to the conclusion you have drawn.

As I said, it's the hardest position to predict and while the jury is out on what we have, the key reason we've had four respectable "prospects" in Gustavsson, Scrivens, Rynnas and Owuya is Allaire. We could ignore what he's done with his coaching and he's still effectively delivered four pretty good draft picks with those goalies. This club went from next to nothing in goalie prospects to one of the better goalie prospect crops in the league. I think that's kind of remarkable on it's own and worth something of value to this franchise. We might debate his effectiveness as a goalie coach but I think Allaire's role in attracting those goalie prospects is beyond reproach.

In terms of development, the jury is still out but Reimer didn't strike me as much until Allaire got a hold of him. According to James, he's helped him considerably. Maybe that's placating lip service to his coach but James is a pretty straight talking hockey player.

The jury on development by Allaire will continue to be out for some time to come because this is a position that takes most goalies years to master in the NHL. It's the position that typically takes the longest to develop. Four years ago:
- at age 22, Jonathan Quick was a .905 save% ECHL goalie.
- at age 25, Rinne was a .908 save% AHL goalie
- at age 27, Thomas was a .905 save% AHL goalie

I think these prospects, well regarded by goalie prospect rankings when they were signed, need some time before we really know what we've got but none of them have been stinking it up in the minors under Allaire. A couple of them have attained NHL caliber backup status with maybe some better development to come.

I think any expectation that Allaire was going to turn the goalie situation around in a season or two ignores the typical development these guys have to go through. It's going to take a few more seasons before we can fairly judge Allaire's coaching in my opinion.

In the interim, if he keeps attracting quality young UFAs and helping the scouts draft good prospects, that alone is worth quite a bit.

 

[pnjunction]

I think any expectation that Allaire was going to turn the goalie situation around in a season or two ignores the typical development these guys have to go through. It's going to take a few more seasons before we can fairly judge Allaire's coaching in my opinion.

Isn't this the 3rd season?  A few more seasons and we'll be looking back at more than half a decade.  I should hope we can fairly judge something after so long, although I wouldn't be surprised if someone reaches into the big bag of excuses and argues otherwise.

 

[Bender]

I think any expectation that Allaire was going to turn the goalie situation around in a season or two ignores the typical development these guys have to go through. It's going to take a few more seasons before we can fairly judge Allaire's coaching in my opinion.

Isn't this the 3rd season?  A few more seasons and we'll be looking back at more than half a decade.  I should hope we can fairly judge something after so long, although I wouldn't be surprised if someone reaches into the big bag of excuses and argues otherwise.

Or, you know, people can agree to disagree. I don't see this as creating "excuses," especially when most of us, I would suspect, have absolutely no idea what's going on. Personally for something like goaltending coaching I would go on a man's reputation and ability to attract talent. I remember what it was like under McKichan, and we never attracted assets with him like we are under Allaire. One of these goaltenders will pay off in one way or another, whether they become full fledged NHL goaltenders or useful pieces we can parlay into other needs.

 

[KW Sluggo]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.....

In order for any Leaf goalie to succeed behind this team's defensive
system (an oxymoron if I ever heard one) is if you have a prime-time
Cujo or Belfour or currently maybe a Lundqvist.

You just cannot tell me that the St Louis Blue's goalies or the Coyotes
goalies are *that good*. They're not. It's the system in front of them. IMO even Brodeur's numbers are vastly enhanced by being behind the NJ system. The one year they fell apart system-wise was last year and he struggled to the point of "he's lost it" whispers.

I think that having a young/rookie goalie trying to find his way behind this
team/system is impossible. And who is responsible for this? Wilson and Burke. Got to be entertaining to sell the tickets here in Toronto... :

I do not disagree with you but 13 seconds?

And coming after a similar early game surrender the previous outing and immediately after a pregame pep talk targeted on the importance of not giving up early goals and getting off to a fast start, well the problem may be that the players have tuned out or maybe the problem is between the ears.