Contracts for the Big-3

[Zee]

You never had a kind word for Lou's dealings here, and you've been critical of Dubas since the start.

Both of those things are emphatically untrue. To the extent that I didn't like Lamoriello a large part of it was because I was so high on Dubas and the things he did during his limited time running the time. I argued pretty strongly that Dubas' so-called "apprenticeship" period was entirely unnecessary. I also feel like I was pretty complimentary of Dubas after signing Tavares.

You said "I think what Dubas has done in these negotiations is ultimately bad for the Leafs regardless of whether Nylander gets signed or not." which is ludicrous.

Yes. Given the range of options I still think this was the wrong call and an obviously wrong call. I give Dubas credit when he does good things, criticize when he does glaringly stupid things. To me, this falls in the latter category.

Once Nylander signs...

If Nylander signs...again, the result you seem to have such a problem with me describing as bad is, at this point, the best case scenario.

The fact the Leafs are 2nd overall in the league standings just shows that this game of chicken Dubas has played hasn't hurt the team in the slightest.

This is also untrue. Leaving aside what I said about Nylander's potential development(and his potential trade value) the fact that the team has a certain number of points doesn't mean that, with another very good player on the team, they couldn't have more points.

In a division that looks to be pretty competitive this year, I think every point is ultimately going to count.

With Nylander in the lineup, the Leafs might not find out what they have in Kapanen as Babcock plants him on the 3rd or 4th line.  It seems to me that Kapanen's development has benefited from Nylander's absence which is a positive for the team.

Sure "every point" is going to count, but this Leafs team is making the playoffs regardless, and they have to beat good teams regardless of where they finish.  The fact that they're still in a position to win the division and conference is great, and shows that they haven't missed Nylander all that much.  With Nylander in the lineup do they have 3 or 4 extra wins?  I'm not sold on that.

[quote author=Nik the Trik]
If Nylander signs...again, the result you seem to have such a problem with me describing as bad is, at this point, the best case scenario. [/quote]
You didn't describe him not signing as the "bad" option.  You said even if he signs it's bad for the Leafs.  That's what I'm taking issue with.

 

[Kin]

You didn't describe him not signing as the "bad" option.  You said even if he signs it's bad for the Leafs.  That's what I'm taking issue with.

That is categorically untrue and you should know because you quoted me accurately just a few posts ago:

"I think what Dubas has done in these negotiations is ultimately bad for the Leafs". Not Nylander signing. What Dubas has done. Dubas. His actions. Bad. Even if Nylander signs. Nylander sign? Good. Dubas? Bad.

 

[Zee]

You didn't describe him not signing as the "bad" option.  You said even if he signs it's bad for the Leafs.  That's what I'm taking issue with.

That is categorically untrue and you should know because you quoted me accurately just a few posts ago:

"I think what Dubas has done in these negotiations is ultimately bad for the Leafs". Not Nylander signing. What Dubas has done. Dubas. His actions. Bad. Even if Nylander signs. Nylander sign? Good. Dubas? Bad.

How is it bad?  What Dubas has done.  Not him signing.  What Dubas has done.  How is it bad?  If Nylander signs, how is it bad?  How?

Again, if Nylander signs, how is what Dubas has done to sign him bad?  How?

 

[Kin]

Again, if Nylander signs, how is what Dubas has done to sign him bad?  How?

I've answered that question quite a few times. I get it, you don't think the missed time matters for Nylander's development and think that the points the team has (potentially) missed are ultimately irrelevant. I'm happy to just disagree with you on that but I don't think I've been unclear on what I think is the answer to that question.

 

[Andy007]

I don't know, does anyone actually have any behind the scenes information about the negotiations? I mean, if Nylander's camp refuses to budge on the 8/8.5 yearly figure, doesn't that absolve Dubas from any, if not all, criticism? And if Dubas is dead-set on 6 million without any compromise, wouldn't that be pretty senseless?

I'm curious to see what Nylander ends of signing for; if it's 7 or less then I have a hard time understanding Dubas' actions here. I just can't see the reason to criticize him until, you know, we actually know what's going on or has transpired... 

 

[Kin]

I mean, if Nylander's camp refuses to budge on the 8/8.5 yearly figure, doesn't that absolve Dubas from any, if not all, criticism?

As I've said before, not to my mind no. If that was ultimately what was needed to sign him, I think that's still a reasonable number that should have been reached in the interest of having the most important pieces on the team fat and happy and building value.

 

[Andy007]

I mean, if Nylander's camp refuses to budge on the 8/8.5 yearly figure, doesn't that absolve Dubas from any, if not all, criticism?

As I've said before, not to my mind no. If that was ultimately what was needed to sign him, I think that's still a reasonable number that should have been reached in the interest of having the most important pieces on the team fat and happy and building value.

Okay, while I'm not sure I'm on board with it, it's still an understandable position. What I don't understand; however, is how you've only seen 3 Police Academy movies.

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/DylanFremlin/status/1068565191116259328

 

[Kin]

Okay, while I'm not sure I'm on board with it, it's still an understandable position. What I don't understand; however, is how you've only seen 3 Police Academy movies.

Ultimately, they were just too complicated for me to follow. How does a man sound like a helicopter?

 

[herman]

T-minus 24 hours until I start flooding every conversation extolling Nylander?s virtues as promised.

 

[Bender]

https://twitter.com/DylanFremlin/status/1068565191116259328

Those stats are good, but they don't really indicate how much better/worse he is relative to Matthews overall as a player. He enters well, exits well and has a ton of low to high passes. I don't think this completely disproves that Nylander's point totals are better due to playing with Matthews, who has had the best start to his career without Nylander.

 

[ZBBM]

I heard Bettman has unilaterally extended the deadline to sign Nylander until the end of the year, just because this is sooo much fun.

 

[Highlander]

I heard Bettman has unilaterally extended the deadline to sign Nylander until the end of the year, just because this is sooo much fun.

If you find this fun you must think Root Canal is a laugh riot :'(

 

[herman]

Those stats are good, but they don't really indicate how much better/worse he is relative to Matthews overall as a player. He enters well, exits well and has a ton of low to high passes. I don't think this completely disproves that Nylander's point totals are better due to playing with Matthews, who has had the best start to his career without Nylander.

I think it's showing that Nylander holds his own in driving production and Matthews' numbers in previous years are just as much a product of his time with Willy.

Matthews' start this year is amazing on the box stats, but a bit of a false positive given how much of it was PP generated + poor CF%. i.e. imagine how much more awesome he will be when he has a puck carrier feeding him delicious sauce from the right wing and also opening up space for him to operate.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

T-minus 24 hours until I start flooding every conversation extolling Nylander?s virtues as promised.

Hold on, until you start?

: ;D

 

[Phileas Fogg]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/31-thoughts-senators-melnyk-scrambling-save-arena-deal/

13. "I hope that, at the end, he makes his own choice, not anyone else?s. He?s 22. It?s his life."

Yep. And that's why you're seeing Babcock and teammates making comments in the media at this stage, to make it personal.

 

[lamajama]

Okay, while I'm not sure I'm on board with it, it's still an understandable position. What I don't understand; however, is how you've only seen 3 Police Academy movies.

Ultimately, they were just too complicated for me to follow. How does a man sound like a helicopter?

Awesome. That made me lol and this thread is getting heated so good quip  ;D ;D

 

[Andy007]

Okay, while I'm not sure I'm on board with it, it's still an understandable position. What I don't understand; however, is how you've only seen 3 Police Academy movies.

Ultimately, they were just too complicated for me to follow. How does a man sound like a helicopter?

I'm still trying to understand how the best replacement they got for Steve Guttenberg was the 2nd guy who played Llyod Braun on Seinfeld...

 

[herman]

T-minus 24 hours until I start flooding every conversation extolling Nylander?s virtues as promised.

Hold on, until you start?

: ;D

 

[herman]

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/31-thoughts-senators-melnyk-scrambling-save-arena-deal/

13. "I hope that, at the end, he makes his own choice, not anyone else?s. He?s 22. It?s his life."

Yep. And that's why you're seeing Babcock and teammates making comments in the media at this stage, to make it personal.

Actually the coach and player statements were clearly in direct response to Elliotte Friedman's opinions.