The Brian Burke Thread

[Kin]

The brain trust he's collected with Fletcher, Nonis, Poulin, Loiselle & Dudley is quite remarkable. There isn't a dud in that bunch in my opinion. How could you pull a stupid move with that group in the room?

Well, not to be overly flip or anything but...well, he's found a way.

 

[cw]

I think Burke's hi bred style allows for a fairly quick transition in either direction though. If he thinks he can contend now or soon, he packages some of the picks and/or prospects he's accumulated for 'youngish' players (or vets if he thinks he can go far).

If he thinks the rebuild isn't quite ready to fly he ships off some of his 'mature' guys (usually still in their 20's) for mature prospects. The key to his blueprint is the age group of the players he's moving in and out.

It can work in the sense that he can always get good value in trade for youthful players, whether he's selling or buying. Even if some of his moves seem lateral he eventually finds the 'right' player through trial and error.

I realize the price performance for rookies isn't really ideal under this system, and its not without flaws, but nonetheless it has its merits.

He could get lucky. That's what we have to hope for.

But that scheme to me is sucking and blowing or has the consistent direction of a weather vane.

My problem with the Kessel deal remains: great player but he'll be a UFA after a couple of more seasons and the good bang for the buck is largely gone while they're still trying to assemble a Cup contender.

The timing of what they do to construct a Cup contender should have something to do with it. Not "I'll do what I feel like when I feel like it and make it up as I go along".

Burke talks about having a plan but of all the GMs I've followed, his "plan" is the least discernible because it's had to change as his attempts at "re-tooling", "build from the net out", "top 6/bottom 6", etc changed or failed.

I still like the guy and appreciate him as Leafs GM but his record of achievement of his stated plans isn't very hot. It's only as good as he can change it to try to keep up with his misses.

I'm not sure if direction is a constant though. The system he's set up is ideal if you want to make changes in either direction. Thats my point.

your quote...

"And credit to him for at least recognizing and admitting something in his plan wasn't working and promptly doing something about it. Good managers do just that as rarely does everything go according to plan."

I agree and to my point of his blueprint, perhaps he's laid it out like this for this very purpose?

I definitely don't think so.

"top 6 / bottom 6" - defence, truculence got dumped for top 9 / bottom 3, run & gun water bugs. To some extent, that is due to working with the talent they had BUT some of that was due to changes in the league that they didn't recognize or accept until after many other observers of the league already had.

The "build from the net out" hasn't done very well in the net. I'm still not sure we've got a bonafide starter who can win a Cup - but realize it's a little soon to conclude that and they did well to sign the young UFAs they did. So that's not all bad on Burke - not all young UFAs work out and he signed enough of them that you could reasonably expect one would work out.

Also, his failure in vision of how slim the UFA market was going to get that killed his re-tooling effort wasn't a good thing on his part. Many saw that coming before Burke did.

When you add that all up, I cannot conclude he did it all on purpose. He made some pretty big mistakes/oversights.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Having said that, I still think they'd be considerably further ahead towards contending for a Cup if they'd gone for a rebuild from the outset.

Maybe so, but I stopped having an opinion on that after he stated his intentions and put his plan to work. I haven't liked everything he's done, but I like most of what he does and believe that he will bring a championship here.

I also have respect for the way he goes about his business, with the players, other GM's (well most) and the credit he gives others before himself. I like that for the most part he is honest and believes what he says to others.

We may not like everything he does, but how can anybody not admire the effort the guy puts forth for our team, he wants a winner as bad as we do and that is all I can ask of a GM. If he truly didn't know what he was talking about, I wouldn't have as much faith as I do. People may criticize me for that, but, whatever...

 

[cw]

The brain trust he's collected with Fletcher, Nonis, Poulin, Loiselle & Dudley is quite remarkable. There isn't a dud in that bunch in my opinion. How could you pull a stupid move with that group in the room?

Well, not to be overly flip or anything but...well, he's found a way.

Yes in terms of personnel for example, they've made some mistakes - Komisarek being probably the most glaring example. But even the smartest GMs in the history of the league could take you through a list of those. I would have signed Komisarek for 1/2 mil less per year for four years - so I was very close to making the same error.

I think his mistake in re-tooling direction occurred when he was hired so I don't fault his brain trust much for that. Burke was just honoring his word to the MLSE board and the brain trust had to work around that from the outset.

 

[cw]

Having said that, I still think they'd be considerably further ahead towards contending for a Cup if they'd gone for a rebuild from the outset.

Maybe so, but I stopped having an opinion on that after he stated his intentions and put his plan to work. I haven't liked everything he's done, but I like most of what he does and believe that he will bring a championship here.

I hope you're right. I think he's made his job considerably tougher with the re-tooling direction he chose/agreed to.

I also have respect for the way he goes about his business, with the players, other GM's (well most) and the credit he gives others before himself. I like that for the most part he is honest and believes what he says to others.

I cut him a ton of slack for that. I really respect him for those qualities.

 

[Kin]

I cut him a ton of slack for that. I really respect him for those qualities.

I don't know. Aren't we grading on a pretty good curve there if we're giving him a ton of credit for being honest? I mean, even a guy like JFJ wasn't a liar or a double dealer. I had no time for him as a decision maker but I've seen nothing to suggest Burke is a better person than JFJ.

 

[sampson]

Having said that, I still think they'd be considerably further ahead towards contending for a Cup if they'd gone for a rebuild from the outset.

Maybe so, but I stopped having an opinion on that after he stated his intentions and put his plan to work. I haven't liked everything he's done, but I like most of what he does and believe that he will bring a championship here.

I hope you're right. I think he's made his job considerably tougher with the re-tooling direction he chose/agreed to.

Just out of curiosity, what would the team look like right now if it chose another path? What would be so different? We would have Seguin instead of Kessel. We still have one the youngest teams in the NHL. I'm just curious how different the team would look in your eyes.

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

I cut him a ton of slack for that. I really respect him for those qualities.

I don't know. Aren't we grading on a pretty good curve there if we're giving him a ton of credit for being honest? I mean, even a guy like JFJ wasn't a liar or a double dealer. I had no time for him as a decision maker but I've seen nothing to suggest Burke is a better person than JFJ.

I can neither confirm nor deny that.

 

[Kin]

Yes in terms of personnel for example, they've made some mistakes - Komisarek being probably the most glaring example. But even the smartest GMs in the history of the league could take you through a list of those. I would have signed Komisarek for 1/2 mil less per year for four years - so I was very close to making the same error.

I think his mistake in re-tooling direction occurred when he was hired so I don't fault his brain trust much for that. Burke was just honoring his word to the MLSE board and the brain trust had to work around that from the outset.

But I think that would be my reaction to any effusive praise for that brain trust. Have the results been there? I mean, I'd be all for assembling the Justice League of hockey brains if there was much to suggest it yielded something terrific but until now it seems like an experiment in progress.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Just out of curiosity, what would the team look like right now if it chose another path? What would be so different? We would have Seguin instead of Kessel. We still have one the youngest teams in the NHL. I'm just curious how different the team would look in your eyes.

We'd be the undisputed youngest team in the league, we'd probably be closer to last in the conference and people would definitely still be shatting all over them and smashing their TV sets. 

 

[Kin]

Just out of curiosity, what would the team look like right now if it chose another path? What would be so different? We would have Seguin instead of Kessel. We still have one the youngest teams in the NHL. I'm just curious how different the team would look in your eyes.

I can't answer for cw but, realistically, I don't think anyone can answer that question with any sort of authority. I mean, it's not even as simple as saying Kessel would be replaced by Seguin. The Leafs finished with the second worst record in the league with Kessel/Beauchemin/Komisarek and making the Phaneuf trade. If they'd decided on another direction who's to say they wouldn't have finished last and maybe have Hall?

 

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

Seguin, Hall and Yakupov.

OMG You Guyz Damn you JFJ BriBurk!111!!!1!!!!

 

[Kin]

Seguin, Hall and Yakupov.

OMG You Guyz Damn you JFJ BriBurk!111!!!1!!!!

I like days where you've had a lot of sugar.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

Seguin, Hall and Yakupov.

OMG You Guyz Damn you JFJ BriBurk!111!!!1!!!!

LOL  ;D Gold.

 

[Redleaf]

I think Burke's hi bred style allows for a fairly quick transition in either direction though. If he thinks he can contend now or soon, he packages some of the picks and/or prospects he's accumulated for 'youngish' players (or vets if he thinks he can go far).

If he thinks the rebuild isn't quite ready to fly he ships off some of his 'mature' guys (usually still in their 20's) for mature prospects. The key to his blueprint is the age group of the players he's moving in and out.

It can work in the sense that he can always get good value in trade for youthful players, whether he's selling or buying. Even if some of his moves seem lateral he eventually finds the 'right' player through trial and error.

I realize the price performance for rookies isn't really ideal under this system, and its not without flaws, but nonetheless it has its merits.

He could get lucky. That's what we have to hope for.

But that scheme to me is sucking and blowing or has the consistent direction of a weather vane.

My problem with the Kessel deal remains: great player but he'll be a UFA after a couple of more seasons and the good bang for the buck is largely gone while they're still trying to assemble a Cup contender.

The timing of what they do to construct a Cup contender should have something to do with it. Not "I'll do what I feel like when I feel like it and make it up as I go along".

Burke talks about having a plan but of all the GMs I've followed, his "plan" is the least discernible because it's had to change as his attempts at "re-tooling", "build from the net out", "top 6/bottom 6", etc changed or failed.

I still like the guy and appreciate him as Leafs GM but his record of achievement of his stated plans isn't very hot. It's only as good as he can change it to try to keep up with his misses.

I'm not sure if direction is a constant though. The system he's set up is ideal if you want to make changes in either direction. Thats my point.

your quote...

"And credit to him for at least recognizing and admitting something in his plan wasn't working and promptly doing something about it. Good managers do just that as rarely does everything go according to plan."

I agree and to my point of his blueprint, perhaps he's laid it out like this for this very purpose?

I definitely don't think so.

"top 6 / bottom 6" - defence, truculence got dumped for top 9 / bottom 3, run & gun water bugs. To some extent, that is due to working with the talent they had BUT some of that was due to changes in the league that they didn't recognize or accept until after many other observers of the league already had.

The "build from the net out" hasn't done very well in the net. I'm still not sure we've got a bonafide starter who can win a Cup - but realize it's a little soon to conclude that and they did well to sign the young UFAs they did. So that's not all bad on Burke - not all young UFAs work out and he signed enough of them that you could reasonably expect one would work out.

Also, his failure in vision of how slim the UFA market was going to get that killed his re-tooling effort wasn't a good thing on his part. Many saw that coming before Burke did.

When you add that all up, I cannot conclude he did it all on purpose. He made some pretty big mistakes/oversights.

Fair enough. And I don't disagree with most of your points. I guess I was trying to see if you think his plan is set up to be able to quickly fix inevitable mistakes or be stuck with and dragged down by them for years (ala JFJ.)

Can we at least agree that, built into his system is a very well oiled revolving door?

 

[Jalili]

Just out of curiosity, what would the team look like right now if it chose another path? What would be so different? We would have Seguin instead of Kessel. We still have one the youngest teams in the NHL. I'm just curious how different the team would look in your eyes.

I can't answer for cw but, realistically, I don't think anyone can answer that question with any sort of authority. I mean, it's not even as simple as saying Kessel would be replaced by Seguin. The Leafs finished with the second worst record in the league with Kessel/Beauchemin/Komisarek and making the Phaneuf trade. If they'd decided on another direction who's to say they wouldn't have finished last and maybe have Hall?

Plus that other pesky top 10 pick they would have had

 

[Kin]

Plus that other pesky top 10 pick they would have had

To clear things up, I wasn't saying things would be better. Personally, I'd rather have Seguin right now than Hall. I'm just saying there's no way to know what the team would look like if they'd gone with the full rebuild. The other top 10 pick is a good example too as there's no way to know where that pick might have been and, even if it'd been the same pick, there's no way to know if Burke would have taken Hamilton.

 

[sampson]

I would rather be where we are now.

 

[Kin]

Can we at least agree that, built into his system is a very well oiled revolving door?

I don't know that Burke is noteworthy in that regard. Lots of GM's change up midstream and he seems as hamstrung by his significant mistakes as anyone else(Komisarek).

I mean, if anything, I think it's a negative as I think he's given up on guys too soon.

 

[Jalili]

Plus that other pesky top 10 pick they would have had

To clear things up, I wasn't saying things would be better. Personally, I'd rather have Seguin right now than Hall. I'm just saying there's no way to know what the team would look like if they'd gone with the full rebuild. The other top 10 pick is a good example too as there's no way to know where that pick might have been and, even if it'd been the same pick, there's no way to know if Burke would have taken Hamilton.

I can't disagree with that. There's no way of knowing whether they would have been in position to draft the optimal players (ie a Seguin-Couturier combo down the middle?), but they would at least be heading forward with a pool of elite prospects to build from. Kessel is still a very good player though... I should probably leave it at that.