General Leafs Talk

[Kin]

I'm not sure why that is. Actually, I think it would be rather cool if Sundin passed off his number to a young player like Kadri at the ceremony. Likewise, I think it would have been a cool thing at the Clark and Gilmour ceremonies had a Leaf at the time been interested in the number. Circle of life. Closure. Yada, yada, yada.

I wouldn't go that far. Like I said, I'm pretty strong in my belief that the Leafs should just retire numbers already.

I mean, at this point, they should have #1, #7, #9, #10, #13, #14, #17, #21, #27 retired. That's it. Eleven numbers. There'd still be plenty to choose from.

 

[maplesyrup]

I'm completely fine with having no numbers retired at all. I think there are other ways to honour a former player who was significant to your franchise.  Does the current Leaf way make everyone happy? No. Are there other things they can be doing? Maybe... but I don't think we're insulting our history by closing the doors on those numbers.

 

[ZBBM]

With some trepidation, I'll say that jersey numbers are important.  Very.  Just like we all prefer same names to others (that surely is not a matter of indifference), some of us -- maybe most of us -- have numbers we prefer, for various personal, though not thereby necessarily irrational, reasons.

For me, 43 is ultralame for Kadri, a skill guy.  Prime numbers in the 40s all stink (yeah, that goes for you too Kulemin).  Why?  Because I grew up watching football and I associate them with blocking backs and other "non-skilled" players.  A personal, but not an irrational, reason.

Kadri wore 13 in junior, did he not?  Since on the Leafs no more jerseys are being retired he should just go for it and wear 13.  If Stajan could wear Keon's number, Kadri can wear Sundin's.

I have no problem with anyone's opinion on jersey numbers, but I do have to disagree with your statement that it's not irrational, because it is. it's irrational because how a number fits in in football doesn't apply to hockey. Once referees figured out they could use two hands at the same time, "normal" numbers became any two digit number.

Your reason is personal and irrational. Nothing wrong with that though, as most emotional opinions are. Most players' superstitions are irrational too, but there's also nothing wrong with having them. I'm trying to point out that, while I think your reasoning (and many others who hold on to such significance on what number a player wears) is irrational, but it's not meant as an insult.

Well, this point is hardly worth debating but I can't let it pass.  If I have an association in my mind (not the same thing as an emotion, BTW) that is based on a rational observation -- in this case, that the number 43 tends to be worn by football players who are not in "skill" positions -- then even if I transfer it to another context (hockey) it is not irrational.  You may claim that each sport is a different universe and you can't have transfer associations from one to another, but that assertion is just a preference and has no basis in fact.

My point is, I didn't just say, "I just don't like the number 43 (or 41, 47, etc.)" or "I just don't like prime numbers from 40-49" or "Numbers in the 40s are unlucky."  That would be irrational.  I gave a rational reason (with which you are of course free to disagree) for not liking those numbers.

Like I said, not really important but an interesting point of logic.

 

[maplesyrup]

Just an idea off the to of my head...

In Dallas (I'm talking football now) , rookies aren't allowed to a star on theit helmet until they've earned it. Perhaps a goal needs to be set for current Leafs to "earn" a previously honoured number should they want one? What that goal our achievement might be is something I haven't given much thought to but it's an idea nevertheless.

 

[Kin]

I'm completely fine with having no numbers retired at all. I think there are other ways to honour a former player who was significant to your franchise.

There are, but nothing anyone's come up with has the permanence and actual effect that retiring numbers has(except, I guess, statues). I don't think passing those numbers on is insulting, exactly, but it gives the impression to me of a half-measure. An honour that's not on par with the tradition embraced by other clubs.

Nobody wants to be the Habs and indulge in an 82 game orgiastic festival of past accomplishments but I personally feel that, unfortunately, the Leafs are on the other end of that spectrum, pre-game Alyn McAuley celebrations aside.

 

[ZBBM]

Just an idea off the to of my head...

In Dallas (I'm talking football now) , rookies aren't allowed to a star on theit helmet until they've earned it. Perhaps a goal needs to be set for current Leafs to "earn" a previously honoured number should they want one? What that goal our achievement might be is something I haven't given much thought to but it's an idea nevertheless.

That's worth considering.  Yes, it would ultimately be a subjective judgment, but so is retiring a number.

 

[maplesyrup]

Here's another idea... Nik suggested 10 numbers. I haven't given much thought as to whether or not all 10 of those numbers are deserving but what if each current jersey from here on out had a shoulder patch that  honoured whatever numbers belong there? - It would of course need to remain aestetically pleasing.   

 

[Kin]

Here's another idea... Nik suggested 10 numbers. I haven't given much thought as to whether or not all 10 of those numbers are deserving but what if each current jersey from here on out had a shoulder patch that  honoured whatever numbers belong there? - It would of course need to remain aestetically pleasing. 

Why not just retire them? Personally, I'm not a fan of cluttering up a jersey with Shoulder patches and there are a handful of numbers(#9 and #27 come to mind immediately) where you'd have to have multiple shoulder patches on the same jersey.

 

[maplesyrup]

Here's another idea... Nik suggested 10 numbers. I haven't given much thought as to whether or not all 10 of those numbers are deserving but what if each current jersey from here on out had a shoulder patch that  honoured whatever numbers belong there? - It would of course need to remain aestetically pleasing. 

Why not just retire them? Personally, I'm not a fan of cluttering up a jersey with Shoulder patches and there are a handful of numbers(#9 and #27 come to mind immediately) where you'd have to have multiple shoulder patches on the same jersey.

Well, the point of not retiring them is so they can be used again but I'm thinking maybe a maple leaf shoulder patch that read "21, 27, 13, 1, etc, etc..." instead of "TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS."

Edit: There's a maple leaf already there now anyway, isn't there?

 

[Kin]

Well, the point of not retiring them is so they can be used again but I'm thinking maybe a maple leaf shoulder patch that read "21, 27, 13, 1, etc, etc..." instead of "TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS."

It strikes me as pretty tricky to come up with a shoulder patch that would somehow incorporate 12 or 13 different numbers and not look like an absolute jumble of a mess or some sort of Keno score card.

Like I said, it'd be 11 retired numbers representing the team's first 100 or so years. There'd still be 88 other numbers to choose from.

 

[maplesyrup]

Well, the point of not retiring them is so they can be used again but I'm thinking maybe a maple leaf shoulder patch that read "21, 27, 13, 1, etc, etc..." instead of "TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS."

It strikes me as pretty tricky to come up with a shoulder patch that would somehow incorporate 12 or 13 different numbers and not look like an absolute jumble of a mess or some sort of Keno score card.

Like I said, it'd be 11 retired numbers representing the team's first 100 or so years. There'd still be 88 other numbers to choose from.

I don't know. I'm guessing you could fit 15 or more numbers on the patch and have it still look good.... and if the need arose, you could always duplicate on the other shoulder. - 150-200 years from now, deal with the 2 full shoulders.

 

[Kin]

Well, this point is hardly worth debating but I can't let it pass.  If I have an association in my mind (not the same thing as an emotion, BTW) that is based on a rational observation -- in this case, that the number 43 tends to be worn by football players who are not in "skill" positions -- then even if I transfer it to another context (hockey) it is not irrational.  You may claim that each sport is a different universe and you can't have transfer associations from one to another, but that assertion is just a preference and has no basis in fact.

The problem I have with the Football association is that it's so broad because of the relative scarcity of skill players in football and the rules concerning the wearing of numbers. "Skill players", assuming you're using the traditional definition of QB's, RB's and WR's are limited to the numbers 1-49 and then 80-89. I think it's fair to say that most fans won't associate numbers in the 80's with skill in the NHL but it does represent it in the NFL. Likewise, there are a whole ton of numbers in the NHL that have come to represent skilled play(#66, #77, #99) that are the province of linemen in football.

That said, I'm sure you wouldn't say that you saw #66 and #99 in the NHL and didn't think of skilled hockey players. Because that's the essential and crucial difference between NHL numbers and NFL numbers. NHL numbers and their meaning will change based on who wears them. #66 in the NFL is always going to be the province of guys like Ray Nitschke. No QB will ever wear it. NHL numbers aren't that.

Although with that said, if you asked me to name a NFL player wearing #43 the only guy who'd immediately come to mind is Troy Polamalu, a guy who has no deficiency of skill.

 

[Kin]

I don't know. I'm guessing you could fit 15 or more numbers on the patch and have it still look good.... and if the need arose, you could always duplicate on the other shoulder. - 150-200 years from now, deal with the 2 full shoulders.

I just don't see anything about it that appeals vs. just going with the simple, elegant and permanent solution of retiring a player's number. Like I said, everything else seems like a half-measure.

I look around the sports landscape and see that the teams out there who are really successful all tend to do it. Heck, the Habs wear themselves out patting their old-timers on the back and the Yankees are going to be out of single-digit numbers once Jeter retires.

I'm not sure it's great that the Leafs are on the other side of that spectrum.

 

[maplesyrup]

Although with that said, if you asked me to name a NFL player wearing #43 the only guy who'd immediately come to mind is Troy Polamalu, a guy who has no deficiency of skill.

Right... but you might be hard pressed to find another example. It's odd for a high profile player - full stop. Who knows though, perhaps Polamalu winds up making it a more popular number down the line (maybe he has already.) I think we'd all dig it if Kadri can do that in hockey. 

 

[Kin]

Right... but you might be hard pressed to find another example.

Google's my friend. Also Cliff Harris, great safety for the 70's Cowboys. Just at a glance it seems to be a number more common to DB's than fullbacks.

edit: Also Larry Brown, apparently. So a Cowboys fan should certainly be warm to #43.

It's odd for a high profile player - full stop. Who knows though, perhaps Polamalu winds up making it a more popular number down the line (maybe he has already.) I think we'd all dig it if Kadri can do that in hockey.

But that's my point. Nobody's arguing that #43 is a common number on a sports jersey. In hockey, for nearly 30 years now, there are lots and lots of skilled players who've come into the league, found a number that wasn't associated with any past success, and made them their own. Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Bourque, Lindros, Bure, Mogilny, Fedorov, Roenick, Hasek, Crosby, Nash and on and on. If we're going to be making an argument from tradition, you can just as easily argue that Kadri going with #43 is his part of that tradition. It's a good group to associate with.

 

[maplesyrup]

Right... but you might be hard pressed to find another example.

Google's my friend. Also Cliff Harris, great safety for the 70's Cowboys. Just at a glance it seems to be a number more common to DB's than fullbacks.

It's odd for a high profile player - full stop. Who knows though, perhaps Polamalu winds up making it a more popular number down the line (maybe he has already.) I think we'd all dig it if Kadri can do that in hockey.

But that's my point. Nobody's arguing that #43 is a common number on a sports jersey. In hockey, for nearly 30 years now, there are lots and lots of skilled players who've come into the league, found a number that wasn't associated with any past success, and made them their own. Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Bourque, Lindros, Bure, Mogilny, Fedorov, Roenick, Hasek, Crosby, Nash and on and on. If we're going to be making an argument from tradition, you can just as easily argue that Kadri going with #43 is his part of that tradition. It's a good group to associate with.

Fair enough... but to come full circle, this whole thing started when it was suggested that any given number could be classiified as "lame." My point was (is) that a bunch of then can (for various reasons) be classified as lame. In my mind, #43 remains lame as a hockey choice. Can it for one reason or another become not lame (in my mind at least?) Absolutely.

 

[Kin]

Fair enough... but to come full circle, this whole thing started when it was suggested that any given number could be classiified as "lame." My point was (is) that a bunch of then can (for various reasons) be classified as lame. In my mind, #43 remains lame as a hockey choice. Can it for one reason or another become not lame (in my mind at least?) Absolutely.

Ok, but I didn't say you didn't feel that way. Just that it was nutty.

And like I said, under your definition, every number can be classified as lame. Not some. All. All that makes it lame is someone not liking it for whatever reason they want. I'm sure if Kadri decided on wearing #13 or #11 or whatever that you'd object to someone saying those numbers are lame but they'd be as right as you are here.

Personally, if I have any preference as a fan it goes back to superstitions. Players can be superstitious. I was back in the day. That can affect players. So my only preference as a fan, who's primary interest is in the players on the Leafs playing well, is that they have numbers they like. Kadri likes #43, that makes it aces in my books.

 

[Leafaholic99]

I dont like the number seven cuz it ate nine

 

[moon111]

To me, the #43 is 'The King'.  7 Winston Cup Championships. 200+ wins.  In comparison, Dale Earnhardt Sr had 76 wins.  Petty, Gretzky, Jordan... Kadri? LOL

 

[ZBBM]

To me, the #43 is 'The King'.  7 Winston Cup Championships. 200+ wins.  In comparison, Dale Earnhardt Sr had 76 wins.  Petty, Gretzky, Jordan... Kadri? LOL

Sorry, we are talking about sports here, which NASCAR decidedly is not.